| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
ProgrammingAce
Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 580
|
 Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:18 am Post subject: PC Piracy |
 |
|
Kotaku posted some figures for single day downloads of PC games off of a single torrent site: http://kotaku.com/364440/pc-gamings-piracy-sales-charts
I have hard figures in front of me from official research firms, but this kind of puts a face on the issue. I don't think i can put into words how disappointed i am.
While I was still in high school, my first job was working on a PC "game" for IBM. It was a AI simulation-turned-game, but it was free so we didn't have to worry about piracy. My second job was working as an Artificial Intelligence programmer for a couple of PC games. This was when i really started seeing the effects of piracy first hand. My degree is in Information Security, and what i do now is directly related to piracy. Without getting into too many specifics, let's just say i know a lot about pirating games.
I really don't think the people here are pirates. What lost levels does is completely different, and i respect what you guys do so i hope you don't misunderstand me.
If you're pirating games, stop. You are killing all of the good parts of the industry. More people pirated Okami then bought it. Same with Psychonauts. Same with a lot of games. That's seriously fucked up.
The dreamcast died due to piracy. PC gaming is dying due to piracy. Clover died due to piracy.
Seriously, knock it off. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
The_bag_of_sand
Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Woodstock GA!
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Whoa! Thats bad. Really bad. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shawnphase
Joined: 22 Dec 2005
Posts: 216
Location: baltimore, md
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| good post, couldnt have said it better myself. it's also killing the music industry, where a lot of artists (and by 'artists', i mean 'established artists') are in a sink or swim position where they're offering so many different options for any type of payment. its good to see and see them able to do it their way, but its ruined the whole 'rock star' ideal, which sucks for really good artists in a lot of entertainment fields. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MathUser2929
Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 203
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
rock artists still have their concerts and merchandising. To fully expereince those you have to pay for them. I for one know a concert dvd is not the same as actually being there.
Also, it was sort of the music industries fault for not embrassing the new medium right away. Nowdays you can buy mp3's online, but it took a long time for the music industry to set that up. I think apples ipod store is pretty successful far as selling mp3's go.
I suppose some of these online games can still make their money back due to online servers that cost money. Unless there are private servers for it. Also, Dreamcast didn't die due to piracy only. They died cause of their reputation for supporting their machines made people cautious of owning the new one. And then when PS2 came out people bought it as they knew sony was gonna back it, not to mention it came with a free dvd player, which were more expensive back then. Plus ps2 was a superior machine anyway. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Smeg
Staff
Joined: 26 Aug 2003
Posts: 1600
Location: beneath enemy scrotum
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: PC Piracy |
|
|
| ProgrammingAce wrote: | | The dreamcast died due to piracy. |
I find this difficult to believe. I'm aware that Dreamcast piracy went on, but it was a small niche as far as I could see. The Dreamcast died because no one bought one - not just the games. Sega never recovered as a hardware producer since their handling of the 32X and Saturn made gamers lose their faith in the company. No one wants to buy a console only to have development cease for it one or two years later.
| deespence2929 wrote: | | I think apples ipod store is pretty successful far as selling mp3's go. |
I will never buy from iTunes, for several reasons:
1 - DRM is bullshit. Period. Once I buy the music, I expect to be able to do anything with it I that I would have with any other format.
2 - Apple's encoder sucks. iTunes introduces artifacts, and the bitrates aren't great. Where's the high quality VBR?
3 - No selection. Sorry if I'm not interested in the latest Justin Timberlake or U2 album. Call me when you guys get some Buckethead. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
handofg0d
Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 455
Location: PA
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I take a partial issue with Kotaku's article, and piracy "numbers" in general. People pirating games/music/whatever does not equate into direct loss of revenue. Obviously there's no feesable way to discern actual numbers, but I would still say that the majority (51%+) of piracy occurs by people who wouldn't have bought the product anyway. That is to say, even if piracy was 100% abolished and completely impossible in any way, i.e. a perfect world for developers/producers/artists, the majority of piraters of a specific product, still wouldn't consume that product.
I'm not condoning piracy, in fact I'm against it in general. But to actually think that downloads = lost sales is ridiculous. Sure, it does equate to SOME lost sales, but again, the majority of those downloads only occurred because it was free, not because they really wanted the product. Take free samples for example. If you stood in a mall and handed out free CDs and/or games, you can bet that the majority of the people taking the cds/games are only taking it because it's free, not because it's a CD they've really wanted to own.
I'm also not saying it doesn't impact producers, just that these numbers are hyperbole (in terms of revenue loss).
Also, Smeg,
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/04/02itunes.html
Sure it's not VBR but it's better and its DRM free. Can't say much about selection though. I also don't buy iTunes for the record. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Carnivol
gay dickhead
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 576
Location: confirmed
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The Dreamcast was also heavily hurt by the lack of certain shelf filling publishers (Y elo thar, EA).
[weird ranting]
| ProgrammingAce wrote: | | If you're pirating games, stop. You are killing all of the good parts of the industry. More people pirated Okami then bought it. Same with Psychonauts. Same with a lot of games. That's seriously fucked up. |
I find that rather hard to believe.
To me it seems like games like those two are the ones that are the least likely to've been affected by piracy. They were more victim of never having proper advertisement through anything but tiny media coverage (the result of not sending in huge free schwag bags, which is mandatory to make headlines) and no one really putting any effort into "getting it out there" except from the media dedicating half a page (when possible) to "This game is a nice one that some of you will love".
In overall, I think the whole piracy thing is somewhat viewed in a wrong way. (Especially when they gather "numbers/data" to base things on).
It's more like a hidden competitor and lurking business sales-variable that they for some reason don't keep in mind when they plan how to sell something.
You can't sue nature for having a change of weather which affects your winter tire sales. Can't really sue humanity for affecting the weather either. Can't really go claim the money the cops have collected through fines given to people who've driven around without winter tires either. Don't think you can go sue people for using some old and still perfectly good tires either.
I don't endorse piracy, but I honestly think that people have some rather narrow minded ideas about it when it comes to what kind of effect it has on things.
[/weird ranting]
By the way, there was a quote from you (PA) that comes from another topic that I actually want to bring into this topic, as I am still really curious about what you meant with it (and I for some reason got reminded of it when reading your post):
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
B00daW
BANNED
Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 135
Location: Gehenna
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The PC gaming industry is dying because the releases are so damn conservative that people can't expect anything other than an MMO, an RTS, or an FPS. Seriously... Those genres are pretty damn lame.
Respectively, either get addicted and lose your life, friends, and have very low potential to finding a mate, have to sit on the computer at least 15 minutes to an hour to finish a single game without breaking rules of ettiquette, or kill the billionth humanoid polygon in your life.
The PC gaming industry days are numbered not just due to piracy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ProgrammingAce
Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 580
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Carnivol wrote: |
By the way, there was a quote from you (PA) that comes from another topic that I actually want to bring into this topic, as I am still really curious about what you meant with it (and I for some reason got reminded of it when reading your post):
|
That was for SnoCross 2, the game is absolute garbage. I thought it went completely unreleased, but somehow a PS2 version snuck out the door while i wasn't looking.
I'm not foolish enough to think that even 10% of the people who pirate a game would have bought it otherwise. What i do know is that a shit load of people are playing a game that they didn't pay for. Having been a PC developer, i can tell you that pisses us off. Devs are human, when they see their hard work being pirated they get angry and often want to stop making PC games.
The thinking goes like this. You bastards are going to download this game 9,000 times a day, then we're not going to make any more games for you. We're going to the consoles, where there's some semblance of control.
As for psychonauts and okami, think about it. If 20 people a day have downloaded those games since they've been released, that's more then actually bought it... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dot50Cal
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: PC Piracy |
|
|
| Smeg wrote: | 1 - DRM is bullshit. Period. Once I buy the music, I expect to be able to do anything with it I that I would have with any other format.
2 - Apple's encoder sucks. iTunes introduces artifacts, and the bitrates aren't great. Where's the high quality VBR?
3 - No selection. Sorry if I'm not interested in the latest Justin Timberlake or U2 album. Call me when you guys get some Buckethead. |
DRM can be removed rather easily with a handy little app which runs automatically. It will retain your ratings and all that, and even replace the DRM copy if you wish.
The encoder sounds fine to me, though I'm no audiophile, I'd certainly not accept any artifacts. Itunes also has high bitrate copies on their store now IIRC.
Buckethead is on Itunes, and has been for a while. I think the only bands you'd have trouble finding are Lead Zeppelin and obscure foreign bands. Hell, Even Lordi was added soon after their Eurovision win a while back.
http://pici.se/pictures/PwpdYmtyq.jpg |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
B00daW
BANNED
Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 135
Location: Gehenna
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Smeg wrote: | | I hate iTunes. |
If you wanna VMWare your machine, you could always use the iTunes alternatives for Linux. Many of them bypass DRM or convert from iTunes format to others easily. (Yeah yeah... I know. Recode bad.)
http://techlogg.com/content/view/371/40/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vlcice
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 89
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: PC Piracy |
|
|
| Smeg wrote: | | ProgrammingAce wrote: | | The dreamcast died due to piracy. |
I find this difficult to believe. I'm aware that Dreamcast piracy went on, but it was a small niche as far as I could see. The Dreamcast died because no one bought one - not just the games. Sega never recovered as a hardware producer since their handling of the 32X and Saturn made gamers lose their faith in the company. No one wants to buy a console only to have development cease for it one or two years later. |
I realize that the plural of "anecdote" isn't "data," but my experiences back in high school backed up ProgrammingAce's point. I knew several people who bought DCs due to easy piracy and only burned games, never bought them; they weren't the hardcore users who are usually very into games, and I don't think they had owned modded PS1s. They pirated for DC because it didn't require any kind of mod chip. I didn't know anyone who owned the system and actually bought games for it.
They were, as I recall, completely unaware of the 32X and Saturn - even back then those had had so little market penetration that to the general public they may as well not have existed. They eventually sold off their systems when the PS2 came out; I recall one tried to sell me his system for some absurd amount of money because it came with a lot of pirated games, and isn't that a great deal? (Protip: it isn't.)
Also, despite what that press release says, the DRM-free and higher-bitrate songs are the same cost as DRMed songs now. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Smeg
Staff
Joined: 26 Aug 2003
Posts: 1600
Location: beneath enemy scrotum
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| B00daW wrote: | | people can't expect anything other than an MMO, an RTS, or an FPS. Seriously... Those genres are pretty damn lame. |
Don't make me agree with you 
| ProgrammingAce wrote: | | [We're going to the consoles, where there's some semblance of control. |
Hooray!
(can you tell I don't care about PC games yet?) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Boco
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 37
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| handofg0d wrote: | | I take a partial issue with Kotaku's article, and piracy "numbers" in general. People pirating games/music/whatever does not equate into direct loss of revenue. Obviously there's no feesable way to discern actual numbers, but I would still say that the majority (51%+) of piracy occurs by people who wouldn't have bought the product anyway. That is to say, even if piracy was 100% abolished and completely impossible in any way, i.e. a perfect world for developers/producers/artists, the majority of piraters of a specific product, still wouldn't consume that product. |
http://kotaku.com/362705/piracy-and-casual-games
| Quote: | | [...] for every 1,000 pirated copies we eliminated, we created 1 additional sale. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blitzwing
Staff
Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 288
Location: las vegas
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Smeg wrote: |
(can you tell I don't care about PC games yet?) |
If it doesn't include sprite based worms blowing the shit out of each other, niether do I  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shawnphase
Joined: 22 Dec 2005
Posts: 216
Location: baltimore, md
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Blitzwing wrote: | | Smeg wrote: |
(can you tell I don't care about PC games yet?) |
If it doesn't include sprite based worms blowing the shit out of each other, niether do I |
i liked it more when it was called scorched earth ;D |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
B00daW
BANNED
Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 135
Location: Gehenna
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| shawnphase wrote: | | i liked it more when it was called scorched earth ;D |
I remember it when it was Tank Wars on the 386. ;P Before said game. :O Oldschool'd. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LocalH
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 160
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| C64. Artillery Duel. Mega-oldskool'd. :) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blitzwing
Staff
Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 288
Location: las vegas
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
bah you guys have no roots at all!
gorrilas in Qbasic
man that game was fun to modifiy the code back in the day for super mega destructive bananas |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ProgrammingAce
Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 580
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
