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I'm working on a emulation project. I've a few questions.

 
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Volyren Nightsong



Joined: 06 Sep 2012
Posts: 8
Location: Greenwood, SC - USA

PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:58 am    Post subject: I'm working on a emulation project. I've a few questions. Reply with quote

i will apologize now for the lack of formatting and probably grammar errors here (especially lack of proper punctuation and capitalization) but i am typing this on a smartphone screen, as my computer has died on me at the moment.

I am tired and struggling here, so my normally verbose nature is being overwhelmed by my sleepiness.

The project that I am working on, is a complete backup and archive of all cartridge based games from atari's first system to the N64 (maybe, not the N64, as emulation can be problematic sometimes, and even good systems can chug on many games)

These for the most part, already exist, in many collections around the web, but in no way are ever combined as a single archive. When I say every game, i mean every game.
every crappy mario hack, every version, every translation patch for every language.

Of course, these will forever be updated, as new versions of new hacks and translations come out, but the main focus is simply the games, not the modifications (other than translations) hack modifications will go in an appendix section, separate from the base games.

To link all of these various games, I envision a single program which will not only organize the games, and link to the emulators of the user's choice, but will have a visual interface that will display artwork from the game (preferably the game's front and back case art, or at the least a screenshot of the title screen and one of gameplay. where possible, the manuals will be included, in pdf format, and a link to the game's main page at gamefaqs will be listed along with the games information, and any pertinent info, including translation notes, or in the case of unreleased/found games, a link here to the proper page, or at the least a short account of its development and eventual discovery.
This will require quite a bit of gruntwork, and will NOT be completed by me, or any other one person, but rather will be left open to the public to add what info they will, and I will try to fill in the gaps as best I can.
I envision that the final program will have a clean windows style look, sort of like MAME32 and the dosbox frontend, D_FEND reloaded.

Functionality:

In the menu, you can browse games, not just by system, but by genre, year, publisher, etc. Each game in the list should have thumbnail art shots as mentioned earlier, and while i think about it, perhaps a link to a gameplay video on youtube. Once you have located a game you like, instead of having to navigate folders and open emulators, navigate more folders, then start the game, the process will be simplified. the link will auto launch the appropriate emulator (with a warning message if it is the first launch of the emulator to complete setup of the emulator, including controls) and auto launch the game.

at any rate, before i devolve into a jabbering idiot due to fatigue, my main questions to this community are:

1. Does this sound like a useful project, or one that no one will be interested in other than me?

2. Considering I don't need any real functions other than display and calling other programs, would this be easy to program in some easy language (like visual basic, perhaps) for me? (i have little programming skill, limited to helping with scripting in games and the few projects i have helped with.

3. I've had one person suggest doing this in HTML, which I really don't know whether it can be done well enough. (i know you can call programs with hyperlinks, and there are always frames and certainly you could link the things I have listed, but how would you go about reading which roms you have installed from inside a browser?)

4. If i am correct, ROMS all have a proper name, right? just as an example "Legend of Mario: Zelda's Day-Off [J-USA-MARS] (a1) [!]
instead of just "zeldas day off". This is how I assume to make the Rom reading function determine if you have the correct rom.

thats about it, im exhausted, and i apologize for the sloppiness of this, but i hope you bear with me.
I respect the opinions of the community and want to know what the thoughts are here before taking the project to the design phase.

Thank you in advance,

Josh Hines (Volyren Nightsong)
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TheRedEye
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.gameex.com/
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ICEknight



Joined: 15 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The project that I am working on, is a complete backup and archive of all cartridge based games from atari's first system to the N64 (maybe, not the N64, as emulation can be problematic sometimes, and even good systems can chug on many games)

These for the most part, already exist, in many collections around the web, but in no way are ever combined as a single archive. When I say every game, i mean every game.
every crappy mario hack, every version, every translation patch for every language.

I don't get the usefulness of this, to be honest.
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Deadguy2322



Joined: 18 May 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ICEknight wrote:
Quote:
The project that I am working on, is a complete backup and archive of all cartridge based games from atari's first system to the N64 (maybe, not the N64, as emulation can be problematic sometimes, and even good systems can chug on many games)

These for the most part, already exist, in many collections around the web, but in no way are ever combined as a single archive. When I say every game, i mean every game.
every crappy mario hack, every version, every translation patch for every language.

I don't get the usefulness of this, to be honest.


Kinda seems like a Sisiphean fool's errand to be blunt about it.
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Smeg
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Re: I'm working on a emulation project. I've a few questions Reply with quote

Volyren Nightsong wrote:
my normally verbose nature is being overwhelmed


^This is my favorite part of the thread.
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Skrybe
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:57 pm    Post subject: Re: I'm working on a emulation project. I've a few questions Reply with quote

Volyren Nightsong wrote:
If i am correct, ROMS all have a proper name, right? just as an example "Legend of Mario: Zelda's Day-Off [J-USA-MARS] (a1) [!]
instead of just "zeldas day off". This is how I assume to make the Rom reading function determine if you have the correct rom.

Don't use the filename to ID roms, anybody can change that. Modern auditing programs use the game's checksum. That's not going to change unless you modify the code of the game itself.
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Evan



Joined: 17 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus the Goodtools which create these names haven't been updated in years. They are hardly the best choice for a starting point.

Just so you know, higan (formerly bsnes) is planning to do this for the SNES. The amount of work required to archive such a dataset for games on one system without the hacks is a formidable task, I just don't see how it would be possible for all systems over a 20 year period. Hell, for my website, it takes me about 10 minutes just to add box, cart and pcb scans for a single game.

Perhaps you should have a look at bootgod's website. It will show you the amount of work it would take just to build a database.

I personally think you are biting off more than you can chew. You should pick a system, and build a frontend for an emulator for that system (or use something like mednafen). Or get in touch with the MESS authors, they have people working on projects like what you are proposing. If you manage to create this kind of database for one system, you can move on to others. Even some of the more advanced database frontends for emulators (like the one that used to exist for the Genesis) ended up dying.
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kap
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever you do, you should be modular and allow for lots of lists to read in, if you even get that far. Put only released games in a their own list so you can have a pristine list of games that most people care about and it will rarely if ever need updating. Separate things like translations and hacks into their own list.

edit: I skimmed what you wrote, I guess you're thinking about a database structure. That would preclude what I wrote up there, which is a-ok. Sounds fun and painful.

Also, to be honest, if you were considering going off of name and didnt even consider using md5 hashes/checksums as Skrybe suggested I don't think you're up for the task. No offense.

Good luck.
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Volyren Nightsong



Joined: 06 Sep 2012
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Location: Greenwood, SC - USA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem, i respect your opinions. But im not trying to create a databse.
without making it sound grandiose, its just a frontend which can launch your collection of emulators. As for the artwork/scans/manuals i am VERY well aware how hard that will be. I hope the program could be expanded into sort of a downloadable wiki, which auto updates every week or so. And i would enlist the entire community in the effort. I dont expect it to ever be complete, just a complete playable list. The info will be up to what the community feels like adding. ( and what i can get around to doing)
if nothing else, a browser for all your roms, regardless of system, which could also launch saud rom, and includes at the least a link to the game's gamefaqs entry would be useful, no?
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TheRedEye
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you're proposing already exists, see my link.
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Volyren Nightsong



Joined: 06 Sep 2012
Posts: 8
Location: Greenwood, SC - USA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im aware of game ex. I have it myself. But besides the fact that it doesnt do some of the smaller features i wanted to include, my big pet peeve is that its not freeware.
im not attempting anythiing so ambitious as game ex. Tell ya what, let me find the time later to make a proper proposal, and you can let me know what you think. Im just super busy at the moment, and havent had time to detail the idea, just broadly generalize it.
but yes, i guess at its core it would be like game ex, but specifically for cartridge emulation, with the manuals/etc.
Actually, i know of a good example to give you an idea of what i envision. Have you ever used the dosbox frontend, DFend reloaded?
i want something like that, only instead of the user having to put the manuals, files and docs into the related files window of each game, those would come in downloadable packs, or as part of the mega download (which will obviously have to be torrent based) and already be available without any work on the part of the user.

The end result for this entire project is to have essentially the software equivalent of "Console Gaming in the 80's and 90's For Dummies!" - The Game.

Everything pre-packed and ready to go. ( i can always ask owners of what i consider to be the best PC emulators from each system and ask if i can include their unmodified emulators zip file with the bundle, and take all the guess work out of it for noobs.)

Too many times i try to help people out with emulators, even people who have no problem with the net, and its like you are speaking another language. The harder i try to show them and explain how easy emulation is, the more confused they look. Im sure you know the types. If they exist in ireland, south carolina, and arizona, then they exist everywhere between those points too. The only time i have ever managed to convince somone that emulation is easy, that didnt already have a little knowledge of it, is to set everything up for them, including the controller, and say,"HERE!" . It is almost like they somehow suddenly "get it" only after you show them a game running on the computer. (And dont get me started on explaining emulation to people on a phone...)

So in the end, i want an idiot proof means of sharing the joys of games long gone from store shelves. Emulation has something going for it that marketing firms the world over cant make with any budget. Nostalgia.
everyone had a game system.
EVERYONE.
whether it was a nintendo, or in some friends cases, an atari; you show them those games and put the controller in their hands, and suddenly, they are kids again.

Im just looking to get more people into it, and for the lazy ones of us who already are, i want to help them stay lazy, and still enjoy the good games that they couldnt be bothered to look for.

In the end, if we truly want to keep these games, and retro games in general, alive and well, into the next century, then we need to get them as widespread as possible. The more people who have em, the less likely they are to ever vanish.

I aim to make them so common (the entirety of cartridge games, not just one system) that should we end up in post apocalyptic scenario, that these games are more likely to survive than most people i know.

(Oh dear, ive gone off on another tangent...count yourselves lucky...the beeping of my phone battery has robbed me of my train of thought, and saved you from my legendary, 3 page length ramblings.)
anyway, i hope that better described my intent, if not the program im still in process of designing.

So, i go now to hopefully locate a charger, and bid you all adeiu


EDIT: Sorry for making two posts (well just the one, but sorry for? (Mentioning this in the other?) At any rate, i wont bother you guys about this anymore. Just thought this would be the pace to find people interested in this sort of thing. I may not have a ton of programming skills, but i have multiple desegn degrees, including game design. I know what im talking about, and im not a 12 yr old pretending to "be one of the guys". I cant understand what about this idea i have suggested angers people, but what else other than "sorry?" Can i say? I really shouldnt feel the need to say it in the first place. Bottom line, i dont think you gave me the opportunity to describe what i panned, and that is mostly my fault for mentioning it before i had it fully fleshed out. I realize that many people want the same goals and have or are working on similar projects. Ok, so if there is one emulator that works ok, no one else should attempt to make another? If you make a killer sh'mup game, would you be angered if i tried to make one as well? That is kinda what i am hearing. I personally hope that ten or twenty more people start working on the same idea i am. The more projects out there, and the more options peope have, expose more people to emulation, and in the end, is that not all of our goals? Look i know it was 12 years ago that i took programming classes and i doubt what i know of COBAL and VB are of much use any more, but i didnt expect to feel like i need to put on a jacket just to read replies here. (The icy reception and all)
im sorry i touched a nerve with you, redeye, i dont know what i did, but i promise i will exit your forums. I never wanted to be a nuiscance. Just to chat with some like-minded people whose work ive checked in on from time to time, and very much appreciated.
sorry we couldnt get along.
I wish you luck in your quest for locating many more lost games, and if i find something during my long searches for manuals and documentation, ill try to pass it along through someone else.
thanks to you all who read my stuff despite the aggravating typos my big thumbscajse on thse tiny keyboards.
Bye.
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etabeta



Joined: 21 May 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evan wrote:
ust so you know, higan (formerly bsnes) is planning to do this for the SNES.


FWIW MESS also does this already.
you can also browse the data (for SNES but also all other software lists) at the following website

http://www.progettoemma.net/mess/

which is getting new and new features all the time Wink
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Volyren Nightsong



Joined: 06 Sep 2012
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Location: Greenwood, SC - USA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, i just caught the reply as i was leaving.
I appreciate the link, but what i was hoping to do is make something for those who have no clue what emulation is. People are inherently lazy, and i was just trying to put something together for the "everyman(woman)".
i know from experience, that you can put together everything that someone needs, but if you tell them "all you have to do iz unzip it, and then go to this site for xyz..."
you might as well have not posted anything to begin with, because 95% of them will never go to the site, and wont bother with downloading the file if they know that they cant just click it and go.
Its sad, but still true. I was just hoping to reach a few of the lazies and get them into emulation.
But anyway...
thanks for your time, and i appreciate the links.
Now if someone just had a link i didnt already know for manuals and cards/maps/other inserts. (No replacementdocs for me, i have to visit through a proxy, and ive already got most of them)
again, thanks for the help, and i wish you all luck in the future.
sorry again redeye. wish i knew what for.
take care everyone.
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Evan



Joined: 17 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You say that people are inherently lazy. Yet you have not even done the basic homework to find out what you need to do this (also, "emulation is easy" - LAUGHING OUT LOUD). You certainly have thin skin when it comes to criticism. You clearly don't know anything about what you are proposing.

- You want to create an emulator frontend, but you do not know how emulators work, nor do you have any programming knowledge

- You want to collaborate with people on this project, yet you don't even know about the existing projects that already attempt to do databases similar to what you want to do.

- Your target audience is for "simpletons" who don't understand the underlying architecture of emulators. But those kind of people just want to play Super Mario World, they couldn't give two shits about "Super Mario Bros. with Mario hacked to have a penis #23". If you are going to use the goodtools archive as a base, you are going to get a lot of these, because howdy doody added absolutely everything.

- If a lot of people use this database system, do you know the bandwidth requirements? A full systems worth of scanned manuals is probably going to be upwards of 1 GB. Are you prepared to take the financial hit to store this database?

- If you are just taking stuff that is already on the Internet for your database without permission, you are going to piss a lot of people off. It takes a huge amount of time to make websites with a lot of content, and if all you are doing is consolidating, I think you will piss them off (including me). You need to demonstrate that you are willing to slave over a scanner and Photoshop for countless hours to make these scans.

Of course, this guy got butthurt and won't be coming back here to read my response. Not that I think he would read it even if he was here.
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Volyren Nightsong



Joined: 06 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, if not for the stupid auto notify, i wouldnt have seen this, but while ive tried to be polite, in the face of your bullshit, enough. You either need to get laid, or....hell, you just need to get laid.
ive scanned many manuals myself. Ive written guides, ive freaking asked permission before using anything, and though its a real pain in the ass to have half my requests go unanswered i dont just go "oh well" and use their stuff anyway.
Furthermore, if this is how you are gonna be with people new to your board, then i would seriously reconsider running one.
There is nothing wrong with disagreeing, and nothing wrong with criticism. But being a dick for dick's sake is just...well a dick-ish thing to do.
sorry i got under your skin, but thats certainly not my fault. Ive spent more money on freakin manuals by themselves on ebay than i will ever care to. The problem with assumptions is that anyone can make em.
and because i dont know programming im somehow inferior? Christ, thats why i took game design. I PAY people to program what i design. Admittedly ive yet to do a non work related project, other than a few unfinished rpg's (im crap at art and equally crap at spriting)but somehow i will apparently be competely inept and incapable of it?
Look, ive obviously picked the wrong forum here, and again, if you want to have the last word, and scream to the world what a baby i am, go right ahead, i just have better things to do than go back and forth with someone who gets so bent out of shape over quite literally nothing. Seriously guy, go smoke a bowl, whack it a good time, or find someone you care about to do it for you. You've quite a bit of pent up anger there.
i never wanted to pick a fight, nor will i be party to some ego driven flame war. Say what you want about me, let the whole world know you are better than me in whatever ay you so desperately seem to need to prove.

Despite all that, i still hope you continue to locate and ferret out those hidden bits of gaming history. Im just at a loss as to how i freakin pissed you off.
yeah, you list reasons, but yet there seems to be no basis for those reasons angering you? You accuse me of things, when a simple "hey, are you doing this? Cuz its not a good idea" would have got your answer AND avoided all this unnescessary drama.
It seems like everyone these days thinks that they are supposed to act like reality show buffoons, and gripe and bitch about the slightest thing, and blast anyone for any little thing. Thats why i barely watch tv anymore. And sadly, its also why i rarely visit forums. And here ive found yet another reason to say screw everyone i dont know personally.
Seriously, i wont be back, ive verified that the notify on repy is NOT checked, and i would appreciate it if you delete my account. Hell ban me if you can, it seems like it might make you feel better somehow.
now you may commence telling me how wrong i am, and what a baby and whatever else you seem to relish in doing.
Seriously, its easy to make snide comments, say im gonna pork yo mamma or whatever juvenile crap is usually the norm in net arguments, but i really do have better things to do.

So, i hope you get over whatever has you in such a pissy mood. If it really is me, then you wont have any reason to be so damned hostile to anyone else anytime soon, as i assure you i wont be back.
Meanwhile ill be at the waffle house, sippin some coffee with people who arent jackasses, among people i can actually chat with in a civil manner.
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Evan



Joined: 17 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So butthurt. I had to wipe a tear from my eye, I was laughing so much.
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TheRedEye
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK guys, that's enough. Mr. Nightsong, I hope your project is awesome and you prove us all wrong.
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kap
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Volyren Nightsong wrote:
If it really is me


It's you.

If you stop writing books in our forums on your little droid and get to writing your app maybe you'll have something done in a few years that'll do what you want to do. You should take everything you're seeing as constructive criticism and as motivation to work on and complete your project instead of being butthurt about it and writing even more books in response.

Considering you're supposedly writing these book-length posts as forum replies on your droid you're probably OCD enough to get this done, if you can stop whining about people hurting your feelings and get to work. So, fuck off until either you have something to show or until you can stop being such a little bitch.

Also, no shit we're going to take offense to you posting in a completely unrelated subforum when you already posted a thread in the correct place. Get over it.

Finally, please don't reply to my post without finding some humility. I was once a way bigger dick, this is me being nice. :) Go write some code.
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