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Meltal Gear Solid N64
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ArnoldRimmer83
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DK64 is unfortunately the only way to get the arcade version of Donkey Kong right now. As Nintendo seems content with giving us the Nes version over and over again.
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TheRedEye
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArnoldRimmer83 wrote:
DK64 is unfortunately the only way to get the arcade version of Donkey Kong right now. As Nintendo seems content with giving us the Nes version over and over again.


The NES version was in the first wave of those GBA NES Classics carts.

EDIT: Oh, wait, the arcade version. Right.
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Carnivol
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Due to the N64's poor design, the sound and music directly
drained CPU power.


Didn't notice you said that...

The N64 was a technical wonder!
Just like the Snes, Saturn, DC and GC...

Just such a freaking shame that the Snes was the only one of those that the developers sat down and learned how to use properly!
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SlyphGlitch



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:34 pm    Post subject: Systems Reply with quote

Every game console has it's ups and downs.

The SNES biggest problem was it's slow main CPU.
(Around 3mhz) Also the SNES was around so long because developers put in a lot of add-on chips that kept the system going late into it's life.

The Saturn was so horriblely designed that it was called the "worst console ever desgined" until the PS2 took that trophy.

The Dreamcast, XBox, and Gamecube are the closest we have gotten to a perfect all-a-round system with no major hookups in
the system design.
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Carnivol
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Snes power was the fact that the parts were seperated and you had different hardware to handle different tasks.


Voila, learn to assign these tasks to the appropriate hardware, and bang, the console with half the juice of the Genesis suddenly kicks it's ass times 1000!


As for the Saturn, it's the same thing there, look at Sega's titles for the console, they're just amazing!

And take a look at some of the unreleased titles that got moved to the Dreamcast...
Man, they look insane on the Saturn, it's stuff that you've never seen on the PSX, and worst of all, almost none of those games used the 4mb expansion for the Saturn:


Virtua Fighter 3
Shenmue (this one, amazing!!!!)
and
Resident Evil 2

(I had a list of titles somewhere... just can't remember where the heck it went)



Tame the hardware and it'll do tricks, unfortunatly, in most cases, the easier it is to tame, the crappier tricks it can do!
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SlyphGlitch



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:29 pm    Post subject: Hold and Modify Reply with quote

Carnivol, are you a big Saturn fan??? There's nothing wrong with that, but from a system design point the Saturn is the second worst-designed console in history.

Granted there were some good games for the Saturn, but getting the something like 5 processors to work at peek effectiveness took a lot of effort. To do those same things on the PSX, it took 3 processors.

The only console that was more poorly designed was the PS2.

Ever played Panzer Dragoon??? Good game.
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Carnivol
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Panzer Dragoon rocks!

And hey, what's that it!?

It's from 94/95, and what the heck!?
It looks more amazing than ANY PSX title from that time...


Thing is, learn how to freaking make games for a system, instead of taking the shortcut and making it half-as-good as it could've been if you put some effort into it.

(Like... you know... EA solutions)



And yeah, the PS2 is the worst designed console, and I think the PSX fits right up that alley too.

The saturn, it was just... misunderstood :cry:


And no, I'm not realy a "Saturn fan boy", it's just that it's such a freaking shame that people keep bashing the system.
It's the typical art thing, people toss shit at something artistic 'cause they don't understand it.
Now, who's the dumb side?
The one who doesn't understand or the artist that has created something that people wont understand?
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Smeg
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is this "second worst console design" bullshit? Is there an official list? Who maintains the list and where can I find it? What makes a hardware platform "good" or "bad" is largely subjective. One time you say fewer processors are better ("Saturn bad") and the next you say more processors are better ("N64 bad").

The Saturn contains eight coprocessors to code for, but those who dedicated the time to learn how to do it right were thrilled with the results they could produce. The thing is, no one wants to put that effort in anymore. They want easy user interface development tools that, while not necessarily using the hardware's full potential, streamlines and homogenizes the game production process. That's the real "problem" with the PS2 - the design isn't particularly flawed, but Sony provided developers with very lackluster programming environments. And programmers complain about it. They get over it, though - no game developer with an ounce of sense would refuse to create for the PS2.

The argument that the N64's design was bad is equally flawed. Performing all sound functions in software grants more flexibility and expanded capability. The PS' internal synthesizer is limited to 24 channels; the PS2's has 48. In theory, the N64 can produce 256 channels of synthesized sound. That's a whole lotta polyphony. Of course, that comes at a cost of CPU cycles, so programmers had to learn to code very efficiently to use these capabilities effectively.

Ultimately, no hardware ever truly gets used to its maximum potential, but financially unsuccessful designs fall further short than others. Still, none of this has any bearing on "good" or "bad" design - a good system is simply one that has games released for it that you enjoy playing.
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Kitsune
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Along those lines, what exactly is wrong with the PS2? I don't own the console so I can't really tell if anything's wrong. The only thing that's bothered me is the relatively low amount of onboard RAM, compared to the Dreamcast...
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TheRedEye
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The PS2 brought me Ico, Metal Gear Solid 2-3, and Katamari Damacy. THE PS2 IS PERFECT AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT EVER.
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The Green Meanie



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheRedEye wrote:
The PS2 brought me Ico, Metal Gear Solid 2-3, and Katamari Damacy.


That reminded me of the Dave Chappelle skit where he's the president, and talks about how an ailen was responsible for all our our technology.

"Most of you think the Japanese were responsible for our recent technology...cell phones, the internet, DVD, Sony Playstation 1 and 2...."
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Carnivol
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS2 have brought me by far almost too many hours of entertainment, but it's also brought me unforgivable amounts of frustration, anger and hate...

None of my other consoles (besides the first PSX I got) has needed to swap the lens/laser unit.

None of my other consoles have had loading issues.

None of my other consoles have gone on a Memory Card rape rampage.

None of my other consoles have purposly fucked up games and at the same time also commit suicide thanks to stress (okay, that one sounds a bit off, but it's true, a friend of mine's PS2 basicly said FUCK OFF to a DVD by squirting the lube for the lens rail onto the disc, and then, after we cleaned the disc, the PS2 got so pissed off that it figure out it should just rape the disc a bit by self destructing the laser unit)

None of my other consoles claims to have features they don't have!
(Except from a couple of my Nintendo consoles that brags about the nice advantages it has thanks to the possibility for plug-in upgrades)


None of my other consoles have had THAT MANY changes to the internal layout, hardware types and so on as the PS2 units I've opened.
Only console that comes near this is the Xbox with it's randomly picked HDs and the randomly chosen DVD roms...



So, I hate the PS2 for looking fucking ugly, and 'cause it hates me, even though the biggest amount of games I own are PSX and PS2 games...

THANKS FOR SUPPORTING ME SONY, I FEEL LIKE YOU TREAT ME AS A VALUABLE CUSTOMER!


Quote:
What is this "second worst console design" bullshit? Is there an official list? Who maintains the list and where can I find it?


Maybe it's something they've got in the army... During my recruit period, we hade something called the "shit paper" slapped on the toilet doors, it contained various stuff we should "know"...
And well, I suppose it almost should be common knowledge in what ways the various consoles are crappy...
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kap
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carnivol wrote:
None of my other consoles claims to have features they don't have! (Except from a couple of my Nintendo consoles that brags about the nice advantages it has thanks to the possibility for plug-in upgrades)


You are on crack if you don't think Sega wins this battle. Sure, they actually released their hardware "plug-in upgrades", but didn't you feel like a fucking retard after purchasing them?
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Carnivol
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actualy, as I never owned a Sega system myself back in the old days, I've felt very happy each time I've acquired a new "gadget/add-on/hardware" with a Sega logo on it...

I mean...
wow!

Another piece for my collection, another piece of art, another piece of history!

Another hole plugged!


I hate the fact that I've got a bucket of NES consoles and when people look on them, they nag about what the fuck's up with the empty port underneat some of them and they start "jokishly" complaining about how I don't have anything to plug in there, except from the dust cover... :-/
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TheRedEye
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carnivol wrote:
Another hole plugged!
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The Green Meanie



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheRedEye wrote:
Carnivol wrote:
Another hole plugged!


Zing of the Dayyyyyyy!
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SlyphGlitch



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:51 pm    Post subject: Out of Control Reply with quote

I see my words have been taken completely out of context...

When you coding for an embedded system, you want it to be easy as it can be. If one reads many of the magazines from that era (94/95) and you read what developers have to say, many of them were complaining about how hard it was to do things on the Saturn. And yes, the Saturn looked good 3D wise until the people
began seeing what could be done on the PSX...

The Saturn also wasn't very forward looking. The PSX's 3D hardware was far superior to the Saturn's and much easier to pump results out of. In an era that was the dawn of 3D graphics, the PSX had an advantage over the Saturn.

On the other hand, due to it's 4MB expansion, the Saturn could do 2D things that the PSX could only have wet dreams about. Ever play Radiant Silvergun or Street Fighter Alpha 3 on the Saturn???

Also the PS2 comment comes from a man name Shinji Makami.(I think I spelled his name right). I'm sure most people know who he is.
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kap
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Out of Control Reply with quote

SlyphGlitch wrote:
I see my words have been taken completely out of context...


You gave almost no context besides rambling about five processors vs three, of course everyone was going to give you grief over it.

Everyone here loves to jump all over halfbaked posts. I know I do.
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Smeg
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Out of Control Reply with quote

SlyphGlitch wrote:
The Saturn also wasn't very forward looking.


Sega looked forward, and saw that 2D was still the standard for the future. They were just wrong, is all.

SlyphGlitch wrote:
Also the PS2 comment comes from a man name Shinji Makami.(I think I spelled his name right). I'm sure most people know who he is.


Who?

kap wrote:
Everyone here loves to jump all over halfbaked posts. I know I do.


Fuck yeah!
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SlyphGlitch



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:52 am    Post subject: Clearify Reply with quote

Let me clearify my "3 vs 5" processor comment.

When working on a new/unknown system, a programmer wants to get results the easiest possible way, the quickest possible way.

When programming an embedded system like a console, having to sync up with three processors with a C library is a hell of a lot easier then trying to get five processors running in sync using assembly language. Long as I can get 90% performance out of my hardware with C libraries I'll use them until I have to goto assembly language.

If I have to learn assemly language first to get five processors running at the same performance level of 3 processors using C, I better have a large amount time on hand to learn things. Granted once I've learned how to use assembly, I can do things that the C library can't touch.

Smeg said
" Sega looked forward, and saw that 2D was still the standard for the future. They were just wrong, is all. "

True, they just bet hard on the wrong tech. I often wonder how games such as SFA 3 and Radiant Silvergun would've looked like on the PC-FX, the other 2d wonder of the day.(A good one at that)

I hope this explains things a bit. And yes I know this is my personal opinion a bit.
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