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November 2003 - Elusions: Final Fantasy IV / Seiken Densetsu
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ArnoldRimmer83
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus the game does borrow a lot of sprites from the Nes FF games. Mostly townspeople and such.
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Ballz
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could pose the argument that the original IDEA for Seiken Densetsu was not one of a Final Fantasy spinoff, but instead the "Gema Knights" project was, before it got renamed to Seiken Densetsu. But that's just getting really nitpicky.

So uh, fine, Yerrick's right. Shucks.
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treeman



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

4 things:

1. I own the japanese gameboy game "Seiken Densetsu" and it says Final Fantasy Gaiden on the box. The first Seiken Densesu was related to Final Fantasy (even some the bosses were from FF1), making Sword of Mana a remake of a Final Fantasy Side Story. The original FDS version of Seiken Densetsu was NOT related to FF because it was planned before FF1. Also, SD2 did not have the Final Fantasy title anywhere on it.

2. I remember reading, a long time ago, that Final Fantasy II was 100% translated for the NES but because FF1 was released in 1990 in the USA and FF4 was released in Japan in 1991, Nintendo decided to not release FF2 in order to release FF4 to the USA public sooner. Also, the original FF2 NES translation was NOT used in FF Origins.

3. Final Fantasy VII for the Super Famicom is actually nowhere near as interesting as FFIV for the Family Computer, but it's still another game that was scrapped related to FF. I have 3 screen shots of it and it looked interesting. It had job classes plus dual and triple summons. And surrounding the enemies during an attack (a feature that is in Final Fantasy X-2).

4. I don't believe that FF4 wasn't started at all. The screenshot shows a level of detail that surpassed FF3. If you look closely at the roof tiles and compare them to the ones in the previous games, you can see that they are improved, along with other smaller details. This would seem to be too much work for a mock screenshot, especially since the company was small. If anything, I would expect completely re-used sprites without any modifications. Also, why would Square speak of airships in such a manner if they had no intention of having them in that way? Remember, this is just one guy saying something without anyone knowing whether he speaks the truth or is just talking out of ass. I will believe him when a second person that was involved confirms his story.
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Kid Fenris



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

treeman wrote:
3. Final Fantasy VII for the Super Famicom is actually nowhere near as interesting as FFIV for the Family Computer, but it's still another game that was scrapped related to FF. I have 3 screen shots of it and it looked interesting. It had job classes plus dual and triple summons. And surrounding the enemies during an attack (a feature that is in Final Fantasy X-2).


I've never heard of this before. Where were the screenshots published? Do you have any scans?
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Ballz
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

treeman wrote:

1. I own the japanese gameboy game "Seiken Densetsu" and it says Final Fantasy Gaiden on the box. The first Seiken Densesu was related to Final Fantasy (even some the bosses were from FF1), making Sword of Mana a remake of a Final Fantasy Side Story. The original FDS version of Seiken Densetsu was NOT related to FF because it was planned before FF1. Also, SD2 did not have the Final Fantasy title anywhere on it.


Noted.

Quote:
2. I remember reading, a long time ago, that Final Fantasy II was 100% translated for the NES but because FF1 was released in 1990 in the USA and FF4 was released in Japan in 1991, Nintendo decided to not release FF2 in order to release FF4 to the USA public sooner. Also, the original FF2 NES translation was NOT used in FF Origins.


Don't suppose you remember WHERE you heard this, did you? A magazine like EGM or something?

Quote:

3. Final Fantasy VII for the Super Famicom is actually nowhere near as interesting as FFIV for the Family Computer, but it's still another game that was scrapped related to FF. I have 3 screen shots of it and it looked interesting. It had job classes plus dual and triple summons. And surrounding the enemies during an attack (a feature that is in Final Fantasy X-2).


I'm not gonna say what I think this is yet, so please show us these three screenshots you speak of.


Quote:
4. I don't believe that FF4 wasn't started at all. The screenshot shows a level of detail that surpassed FF3. If you look closely at the roof tiles and compare them to the ones in the previous games, you can see that they are improved, along with other smaller details. This would seem to be too much work for a mock screenshot, especially since the company was small. If anything, I would expect completely re-used sprites without any modifications. Also, why would Square speak of airships in such a manner if they had no intention of having them in that way? Remember, this is just one guy saying something without anyone knowing whether he speaks the truth or is just talking out of ass. I will believe him when a second person that was involved confirms his story.


First of all, we cannot say the exact origins of what that screenshot is. It could've been made up by the magazine just as easily as they made up those "Predictions from Enix and Namco" in the article.

Second of all, if that picture did come from Square, the level of detail in it means nothing about the amount of progress done in it. It's a conceptual screenshot, showing what they (whomever they may be) think the game will look. I'm aware of the existence of NES prototypes that consist of only a slideshow of concept art. They look pretty when a game magazine publishes them, but they mean nothing when it comes to how complete the game is.

Third, Kaoru Moriyama is a fairly reliable source, and SHE was not talking out of her ass to me, based on other things we discussed. I was bugging her so much about making sure the story was straight with Seiken Densetsu she offered to call the game's original creator to confirm that indeed it was little more than a pipe dream. And if you doubt that Kaoru ever worked for Squaresoft, you need to look no further than the credit sequences to FFII SNES or Secret of Mana.

I appreciate your comments nonetheless, and am curious about your information about FFVII SNES in particular.


Last edited by Ballz on Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:49 am; edited 2 times in total
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kap
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

treeman wrote:

4. I don't believe that FF4 wasn't started at all. The screenshot shows a level of detail that surpassed FF3. If you look closely at the roof tiles and compare them to the ones in the previous games, you can see that they are improved, along with other smaller details. This would seem to be too much work for a mock screenshot, especially since the company was small. If anything, I would expect completely re-used sprites without any modifications. Also, why would Square speak of airships in such a manner if they had no intention of having them in that way? Remember, this is just one guy saying something without anyone knowing whether he speaks the truth or is just talking out of ass. I will believe him when a second person that was involved confirms his story.


I'm of the opinion that a person who worked for the company at the time would more than likely know what is and isn't real. Confirmation from another party is always nice, but I personally don't have any problem believing what she said. (Yes, Moriyama is a woman.)

If we ever have the chance to follow up with someone who was at Square during that time frame, rest assured we will persue it.
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Ichiban Crush
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

didn't somebody "confirm" that a former Square employee owned a proto? According to Skrybe's site, it was apparently "confirmed", I'd just like to know by whom.
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kap
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://64.53.95.207/ujap/ff4/ff4.html is skrybe's ff4 url.. I wonder where the info about someone owning it came from, though I know there's a lot of things we "know" about stuff that isn't really backed up. We should really database all this stuff someday :P
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Ballz
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ichiban Crush wrote:
didn't somebody "confirm" that a former Square employee owned a proto? According to Skrybe's site, it was apparently "confirmed", I'd just like to know by whom.


Mm-mm said he knew of somebody who had it. But that somebody wouldn't allow it to be dumped, and as far as I can tell, never offered any proof. Mm-mm hasn't been seen for ages, and there hasn't been any confirmation of anything since that time. We all just kind of took his word for it.

Personally I think if a proto cart does exist, it's something like a screenshot demo that I mentioned in my previous post, used solely to get some early PR working.
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TheRedEye
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's right about FF7. I had a screenshot somewhere, but I can't find the damned thing right now. In my pseudo-professional opinion, it looked legit.

Where the hell is that thing?
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Skrybe
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ichiban Crush wrote:
According to Skrybe's site, it was apparently "confirmed", I'd just like to know by whom.

I need to update that. Like Ballz said, that was something we'd heard from mm-mm, long before we ever got in touch with Moriyama. mm-mm usually knew what he was talking about, but after what we've heard from Moriyama, I do believe mm-mm may have been mistaken this time around.
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treeman



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't expecting my post to get such a response.

I apologize for calling Karou a HE, when that clearly is a feminine name. I still find that hard to believe that it was mocked up, maybe I'm just being influenced by my desire to play FF4 for the Famicom. All in all, I don't doubt that she worked at Square, I just would feel more comfortable having a confirmation. Personally, I'd prefer to have all of the information and documents (i.e., ideas, work-in-progress sprites, etc...) for the FF4 for the Famicom, regardless of whether the game was started or not.

As for the FF7 screenshots. I will more than happily share them with everyone, but please be patient, I lost the host to my site and I'm now setting my site up using my PC as the server. Give me about a week and I will post all 3 of the pics through a link to my site. Also, if you guys want more information on the game, please have a Japanese translator contact me, I have 2 full pages of text on it but I'm unable to translate it (my last translator bailed out on me because it was too much to translate).

About the FF2 for the USA NES, I honestly cannot remember where I heard about it, but it was a LONG time ago (read: years) and I heard of the prototype but there was no contact information on the owner of it. It wasn't a bootleg of the Translated ROM because this was quite some time before the ROMs were even available. I also remember seeing it on a FUNCO flyer, it had a used price and a new price on it. Back then FUNCO would list all announced games, even if the game is nowhere near it's release date (I don't know if they still function like this.)

Anyway, that's pretty much all I know.

Oh yeah, Final Fantasy II was also released on the FDS system but that was a bootleg, but it was still dumped, but that hardly belongs on this forum.

One last thing, since we're talking about rare FF things, check this out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3060146058
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Ballz
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

treeman wrote:
Wasn't expecting my post to get such a response.


Well, you brought up a smorgasbord of various topics of interest!


Quote:
I apologize for calling Karou a HE, when that clearly is a feminine name. I still find that hard to believe that it was mocked up, maybe I'm just being influenced by my desire to play FF4 for the Famicom. All in all, I don't doubt that she worked at Square, I just would feel more comfortable having a confirmation. Personally, I'd prefer to have all of the information and documents (i.e., ideas, work-in-progress sprites, etc...) for the FF4 for the Famicom, regardless of whether the game was started or not.


If such things still existed, it certainly would be nice to get ahold of. It's been many years since Moriyama has worked at Square, so I doubt she'd be the one to ask for such material. One of the most difficult things we have is the language barrier. I don't know Japanese, and I'm sure most Square employees over there don't know much English. I feel really lucky to have found Kaoru, as not only does she know excellent english, but she worked in the PR department of Square circa 1990/91, which would have been the perfect time for her to have been exposed to info and materials concerning this game.

While it's perfectly possible her memory is incorrect about some specifics concerning these games, I would be hard-pressed to conclude that she's wrong when it comes to the overall progress of development. If not much was completed on these games, she'd know it as well as any actual programmer at the time.


Quote:
As for the FF7 screenshots. I will more than happily share them with everyone, but please be patient, I lost the host to my site and I'm now setting my site up using my PC as the server. Give me about a week and I will post all 3 of the pics through a link to my site. Also, if you guys want more information on the game, please have a Japanese translator contact me, I have 2 full pages of text on it but I'm unable to translate it (my last translator bailed out on me because it was too much to translate).


Please do, and if you could also include the scans of the text, that'd be great too.


Quote:
About the FF2 for the USA NES, I honestly cannot remember where I heard about it, but it was a LONG time ago (read: years) and I heard of the prototype but there was no contact information on the owner of it. It wasn't a bootleg of the Translated ROM because this was quite some time before the ROMs were even available. I also remember seeing it on a FUNCO flyer, it had a used price and a new price on it. Back then FUNCO would list all announced games, even if the game is nowhere near it's release date (I don't know if they still function like this.)


Yeah, several unreleased games were published in Funco flyers back then, so this really isn't as implausible as it first sounds. I was hoping there might have been some game coverage of it, but I never came across anything. I'm pretty sure Nintendo Power never said anything, and I don't have any issues of Game Players or EGM from back then.

Quote:

Oh yeah, Final Fantasy II was also released on the FDS system but that was a bootleg, but it was still dumped, but that hardly belongs on this forum.


Kind of an odd format to bootleg it to, but I've never been able to fully grasp what goes on in those kooky pirates' minds. :)


Quote:
One last thing, since we're talking about rare FF things, check this out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3060146058


Too rich for my blood. :(
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TheRedEye
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Email me those pics if you want, TheRedEye@lostlevels.org , I'll host them here.
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AndrewT



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Also, if you guys want more information on the game, please have a Japanese translator contact me, I have 2 full pages of text on it but I'm unable to translate it (my last translator bailed out on me because it was too much to translate).


I speak Japanese, and would be quite willing to translate. If you email me the text, I should have it all translated within a day or two. (also if the email contains any encoded Japanese, please send to andoryuu99 @ yahoo.co.jp since yahoo.com doesn't handle enciding very well)

And the MSX version of FF1 is quite impressive. I have the disk image, and it's really quite fascinating. It's not too hard to find either, with enough google searches (ftp sites tend to be best for msx roms)
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PopaSmear
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew T...


THE Andrew T?







It couldn't be...

will you give me one of your spare cybikos?


[edit] it turns out he is not, if fact, THE Andrew T. [/edit]
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treeman



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, the MSX ROMs are really easy to find, but that link is the actual game :)

The text I have is scanned, so it's not PC text at all. I'll contact you soon...
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Linquesan



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has the FF7/SFC pictures/text surfaced anywhere on the net yet? It's been like 3 months and I can't find anything on Google, or here, or anywhere close to here..
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kap
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linquesan wrote:
Has the FF7/SFC pictures/text surfaced anywhere on the net yet? It's been like 3 months and I can't find anything on Google, or here, or anywhere close to here..


Do you mean this stuff? If not, can you expand on what you're talking about? :|
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Ballz
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

treeman wrote:

As for the FF7 screenshots. I will more than happily share them with everyone, but please be patient, I lost the host to my site and I'm now setting my site up using my PC as the server. Give me about a week and I will post all 3 of the pics through a link to my site. Also, if you guys want more information on the game, please have a Japanese translator contact me, I have 2 full pages of text on it but I'm unable to translate it (my last translator bailed out on me because it was too much to translate).
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