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Fire Emblem: Rekka no Ken sound engine and prototype builds
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TheRedEye
The Internet's Frank Cifaldi
The Internet's Frank Cifaldi


Joined: 26 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixon wrote:
Didn't Lost Levels have a "leak" long ago from our trusted circle of friends, where TSR or someone, but up quick reviews of a couple of games that we were working on with articles here? It's all so fuzzy.


Yeah, but it was just a miscommunication. The folks involved didn't know we were hanging on to stuff for website content.
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ProgrammingAce



Joined: 26 May 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiddo wrote:

Your complete villain-izing of SatoT for this matter - especially in a community which has to deal with such moral/legal gray areas constantly - seems at least a bit overboard.


The way i look at it, there really isn't much gray area here.

Intelligent Systems is well known for their game development tools, they're one of the leaders in the industry. If you're interested in game dev, and you don't know who they are, then you haven't done your homework.

To go into their FTP, open or closed, and steal their source code is wrong. Then you decide to give it to 5 of your bestest friends, one of which is untrustworthy. You have poor choice in friends.

The icing on the cake here, is that SotoT then came here screaming about booda being a thief. Lord freaking knows where he came up with the files, but it's safe to say if it weren't for your poor judgment, the files wouldn't be out.

If you'd done any research about the community here, you would have known that a simple message to any of the staff would have had the link taken down with no attention drawn. Once again, poor judgment on your part. If you hadn't drawn attention to the files, Pachuka wouldn't have mirrored them.

Look, i know i'm being harsh here, but this is flat out industrial espionage. I certainly hope other people don't think this is an acceptable way to acquire prototypes.

I don't pretend to speak for everyone, so i'd like to hear other views.
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Dais



Joined: 26 May 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProgrammingAce wrote:
this is flat out industrial espionage


hahaha what?

I keep meaning to post seriously in this topic but it's going amazing places without any help from me at all.
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ProgrammingAce



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Accessing unsecured FTP servers is a well used form of industrial espionage.

And the courts have stated that leaving an FTP server open does not permit usage of the files contained within.
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Dais



Joined: 26 May 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProgrammingAce wrote:
Accessing unsecured FTP servers is a well used form of industrial espionage.


Quote:
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
industrial espionage

–noun
the stealing of technological or commercial research data, blueprints, plans, etc., as by a person in the hire of a competing company.


hey, SatoT, who do you work for, and what are they planning to do with the Fire Emblem GBA (and DS?) engine?
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ProgrammingAce



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SatoT wrote:
(which ironically, Keitaro and myself were the only people who have actually done ANYTHING productive with any of these materials in the way of reverse engineering and applying these concepts towards rom hacking and homebrew)


Looks like she's taking the source code and applying it to her own software and homebrew. While she may not be working for a corporation, she is stealing their code and reusing it in a competing product.

It may not be a level playing field, but homebrew does compete with commercial games. Hell, homebrew is the origin of the entire industry. A well made homebrew can easily grab the attention of big time publishers (a la Cave Story). It'd be a shame if an otherwise wonderful game is tarnished by stolen code.

Either way, arguing over dictionary definitions is petty. Would it help if i took the word "industrial" out of the equation? My point still stands.

I mean, does anyone really think this is the "right" way to go about acquiring betas and prototypes?
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Kiddo



Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProgrammingAce wrote:
Accessing unsecured FTP servers is a well used form of industrial espionage.

And the courts have stated that leaving an FTP server open does not permit usage of the files contained within.


The first article states something that implies there was an exploit used in finding FTP passwords - this is not at all about "unsecured' FTP passwords in the most literal sense, which would mean you could log in and download files anonymously. It also does not cite any arrests made. And all this in spite of the fact that social security info is potentially much more dangerous than the source code for Game Boy Advance music.

The second article is... okay, what?
First it goes on about a patent lawsuit involving an FTP somehow, wherein more or less the FTP is beside the point.
Patent lawsuits happen all the time, but patent breakers aren't called "felons" or "criminals". There is no jail time spent or criminal records made unless court orders are broken.
If you're referring to how the government currently defines a "publicly accessible" FTP, as described later in the article and contradicting to the 1997 patent lawsuit case, I don't see how that helps your argument.

For sure, you can supply better debate than this.

(EDIT: not double-posting. I kinda wish this forum had a "WARNING: SOMEONE POSTED BEFORE YOU WERE DONE" Message.)

Quote:
It may not be a level playing field, but homebrew does compete with commercial games. Hell, homebrew is the origin of the entire industry. A well made homebrew can easily grab the attention of big time publishers (a la Cave Story). It'd be a shame if an otherwise wonderful game is tarnished by stolen code.

So now "Cave Story" is homebrew? I was under the perception that it was a Windows game that is now getting a Wiiware port - "indie" fits that definition just fine, but hardly a qualifier for "homebrew" as the current definition (making an application which may or may not even be a game for -console- systems and releasing it publicly as opposed to commercially.)

If you can't even get the definition of "homebrew" straightened out, it'll be difficult to argue the point of homebrew "competing" with commercial software.

Quote:
I mean, does anyone really think this is the "right" way to go about acquiring betas and prototypes?


Coming from the Sonic community I can tell you this: The most popular Sonic the Hedgehog 2 prototype came about to the public originally because it was stolen.

Coming as a Satellaview researcher I can also tell you this: The very first Satellaview ROM dumps also came around because they were stolen.

As someone who knows about prototypes in a more -general- sense I can tell you this: A large amount of prototypes and source codes were never meant to have been shown publicly, period. Do you realize how many of them came from disgruntled employees who broke their job ethics to distribute or sell copies of them?

Knowing all this, I again state the use of the word "felon" is unusually damning.


Last edited by Kiddo on Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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ProgrammingAce



Joined: 26 May 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiddo wrote:

For sure, you can supply better debate than this.


I'm really not here to debate the meaning of "industrial espionage". Are you here to defend SotoT's theft, distribution, and use of Intelligent System's code? Because that's what i'm arguing is wrong.
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Kiddo



Joined: 11 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the whole point WAS to debate? And this is about the whole idea of making someone in this forum, of all places, look like an "Evil jackass" because of where something they wanted to hoard came from.
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PACHUKA



Joined: 28 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eh, i'm kinda in my own kinda gray area. Anyone (If anyone) that remembers EmuCult, I used to leak registered versions of Bleem! when it was still going. Once upon a time I was idling on someone's nick, just being an asshole on efnet irc. Someone supplied "me" with ftp info, which ended up with me getting ahold of the super horded bs-x games and Starfox 2. The concept of "stealing" is hard to define in this day and age of easily accessed information. I remember going to the store every weekend as a kid and blowing my allowance on Spider-Man comic books. Now kids the same age as I was then can simply download them. Don't want to go to the movies and spend a bundle on tickets? Torrent a cam version off Demoniod.

What is ethical? On one hand you have the amazing argument that shit like this destroys media and costs money. On the other hand, there's the aspect of preservation and history.

I tend to side with history. I know a lot of times this makes me the unpopular villain, but I view it as a much needed evil. More and more video games are becoming mainstream media. Someday they might be viewed in classrooms. Who knows. All I know is that the more copies there are of something, the less likely it'll slip through the cracks of history. Shakespeare wrote plays that don't survive today. The writers of early biblical manuscripts mention a lot of lost scripture. Same with other religions.

I'm content with my opinion, and being the anti-hero. =\
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Kiddo



Joined: 11 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PACHUKA wrote:
Eh, i'm kinda in my own kinda gray area. Anyone (If anyone) that remembers EmuCult, I used to leak registered versions of Bleem! when it was still going. Once upon a time I was idling on someone's nick, just being an asshole on efnet irc. Someone supplied "me" with ftp info, which ended up with me getting ahold of the super horded bs-x games and Starfox 2. The concept of "stealing" is hard to define in this day and age of easily accessed information. I remember going to the store every weekend as a kid and blowing my allowance on Spider-Man comic books. Now kids the same age as I was then can simply download them. Don't want to go to the movies and spend a bundle on tickets? Torrent a cam version off Demoniod.


Aw, and here I made such an effort in my writing to try to reference the stolen Satellaview ROMs without explicitly stating your name. Alas. O:
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ProgrammingAce



Joined: 26 May 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiddo wrote:


If you can't even get the definition of "homebrew" straightened out, it'll be difficult to argue the point of homebrew "competing" with commercial software.


When i say homebrew, i'm really referring to any game made by a small non-corporate group of people. I would almost go to the point of calling id's original wolfenstein a homebrew. I don't really care enough about the definition to really debate that...

Kiddo wrote:


Quote:
I mean, does anyone really think this is the "right" way to go about acquiring betas and prototypes?


Coming from the Sonic community I can tell you this: The most popular Sonic the Hedgehog 2 prototype came about to the public originally because it was stolen.

Coming as a Satellaview researcher I can also tell you this: The very first Satellaview ROM dumps also came around because they were stolen.


In my book, that's wrong. I make my living by creating video games. You're directly ripping me off.

If you break into my house and steal the discs off my shelf, i'm going to have you arrested. If you break into my server and steal my data, i'm going to have you arrested. That's not me being an internet tough guy, I see them as similar events.

Kiddo wrote:


As someone who knows about prototypes in a more -general- sense I can tell you this: A large amount of prototypes and source codes were never meant to have been shown publicly, period. Do you realize how many of them came from disgruntled employees who broke their job ethics to distribute or sell copies of them?


Here's what i think. If I, as a developer, sell to you or give you a copy of a game i'm working on. Then that's on me. If i leak a beta, even privately, then i'm in the wrong. If you come and steal it from me because my IT administrator is a dumbass, then you're in the wrong. And if you leak it on the internet, my company has and will prosecute. We sent 17 internal employees to jail for stealing, then leaking video games in 2006.

I work with games every day. Betas aren't some magical unicorn that needs to be protected. They're buggy pieces of software. If i can save a few, then great. If not, i'm really not going to loose any sleep over it.

I have more then 500 betas/protos/alphas/whatevers. Not one of them is backed up. It's too much work, it's terabytes worth of data. Some of them literally are the last copy on earth. If my house burns down, they're all gone, lost forever. And i won't loose a wink of sleep over it.

I've spent my entire career working on video games. My first job, when i was still in high school, i worked for IBM in a 2 man team designing my first "game" called Robocode. I kind of see why people think betas are cool, it's fun to watch the evolution of a game, watch features get cut, etc. I really don't think the Smithsonian will ever open a wing devoted to sonic betas. I keep betas other people would throw away, which is why i have so many, but i'm really not going to go out of my way to "ensure their survival for the next generation".

Think about it this way, there are probably less then a thousand people on planet earth who care about Atari 2600 betas... In 50 years, who's going to care about the xbox 360?

If your life goal is to preserve betas, then i'm not going to tell you you're wrong. I just don't see the point.
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Dais



Joined: 26 May 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think long-term preservation is a pretty ridiculous ideal, but it's the primary process by which people gain access to betas, which leads to the more interesting result of entertaining and informing.

I mean, why take a narrow view? Art, music, technology, society, most everything will be incredibly different in 50 years. 90% of the everyday stuff we care about will mean nothing by then.

Obviously, however, those things aren't meaningless to us right now - and conceivably any time in our lifespan. Preservation doesn't always mean making sure there's a copy in every home. Sometimes it just means spreading the knowledge out to those who are interested, so the efforts of those who have created live on one more day.
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PACHUKA



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dais wrote:
Art, music, technology, society, most everything will be incredibly different in 50 years. 90% of the everyday stuff we care about will mean nothing by then.


Tell that to people who collect Coon Chicken Inn memorabilia. Or people who re-enact wars. Or collect classic cars.

Is it too much to ask for html on a forum?
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TheRedEye
The Internet's Frank Cifaldi
The Internet's Frank Cifaldi


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProgrammingAce wrote:
Think about it this way, there are probably less then a thousand people on planet earth who care about Atari 2600 betas... In 50 years, who's going to care about the xbox 360?


Significantly more than one thousand people.
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ProgrammingAce



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheRedEye wrote:
ProgrammingAce wrote:
Think about it this way, there are probably less then a thousand people on planet earth who care about Atari 2600 betas... In 50 years, who's going to care about the xbox 360?


Significantly more than one thousand people.


you really think so? I'm not talking about the leigon of people who post "great find", but people who will actually sit down and play through and analize some copy of combat with a different title screen. Or someone who's day is actually brighter when they hear someone found a copy of pac-man that doesn't have sound.

I'm sure there is a bit more attention when an unreleased game shows up, but i doubt that many people care about run of the mill off-by-one 2600 betas,

Judging from what i've seen, i doubt there are 5,000 people who actually care about modern betas. They download them once, play with it for half an hour, then delete it. How many people have a copy of "Project Velocity" or the halo 2 beta?
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Kiddo



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="ProgrammingAce"]
TheRedEye wrote:
How many people have a copy of "Project Velocity" or the halo 2 beta?


I haven't heard of either of such being leaked, but perhaps that's because I'm trying to specialize myself in a particular set of games (and, technically, not prototypes...)

I'd assume myself that anything with the name "Halo" on it would be savagely dissected by it's legion of fans, much like every Sonic Prototype ever released was - to show how extreme it can be, many ROM hack projects were based on or inspired by prototypes, the communities go to such extremes as tracking down Sega staff to answer pressing questions, and the first Sega Pico Emulators were made in direct response to prototype releases, because there were no commercial ROM dumps going around at the time (And very few are around even now.)
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PACHUKA



Joined: 28 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiddo wrote:
ProgrammingAce wrote:
TheRedEye wrote:
How many people have a copy of "Project Velocity" or the halo 2 beta?


I haven't heard of either of such being leaked, but perhaps that's because I'm trying to specialize myself in a particular set of games (and, technically, not prototypes...)

I'd assume myself that anything with the name "Halo" on it would be savagely dissected by it's legion of fans, much like every Sonic Prototype ever released was - to show how extreme it can be, many ROM hack projects were based on or inspired by prototypes, the communities go to such extremes as tracking down Sega staff to answer pressing questions, and the first Sega Pico Emulators were made in direct response to prototype releases, because there were no commercial ROM dumps going around at the time (And very few are around even now.)


Guilty as charged. Personally, I (And many others) find the SLIGTHEST difference between prototype and final fascinating.
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TheRedEye
The Internet's Frank Cifaldi
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProgrammingAce wrote:
you really think so? I'm not talking about the leigon of people who post "great find", but people who will actually sit down and play through and analize some copy of combat with a different title screen.


Yes, I really do. As the internet grows, people have more and more interest in small details about things that interest them. As interest in video games grows, people are going to want more and more little details about them. The amount of game stuff on the internet has absolutely exploded in the past ten years or so, and I expect that to continue to absolutely frightening levels in the next fifty years as the line between archivists and fans blurs and eventually goes away.
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ProgrammingAce



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at video games as an entertainment medium, are there any other groups out there who go wild for "pre-production" artifacts?

Like movies for example. Are there a huge group of people who collect the dailies from early movies? Are there book collectors who collect rough drafts? People who collect pilot episodes of TV shows?

I'm sure there are fringe collectors out there, but the Smithsonian hasn't opened a wing devoted to classic movies yet. I'm not really sure video games will be any different.
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