I should have been more clear, "you guys" is not directed at members of The Lost Levels. Members of this site have released countless games and I've always been pleased with what this community has done for getting these unreleased games to the masses.
For me, I get a bit defensive when people freak out about the most recent wave of releases. We're getting the games out all the same, albeit we have made some slight changes. I'm all set with my edick getting huge, my name doesn't appear ANYWHERE in my release and never will.
NA has been putting out a ton of stuff out as of late, without their hard work many of these games would probably still be sitting on Jason's shelf. I love NES gaming and some of the stuff I have is fun as hell, I'd love for these games to get played by people who will appreciate them. With the (little, believe it or not) money I make from my releases, I put it right back into buying more unreleased games to release to the community.
I apologize if I offended members of the lost levels as I did not mean to generalize or attack the community, but more of a "big fuck you" to the people who aren't down with the way we operate.
My release not only doesn't have NA on it, but I also kept every single one of the programmer's name in the ROM just so they could get credit for all of their hard work that went totally unnoticed for 20 years. I also attempted to contact all 3 members of the design team, two did not return phone calls/emails and one is dead.
When was the last time you released an UNRELEASED NES game? NA brought you guys Happy Camper, Mike Tyson's Intergalactic Power Punch, Exerion II, Uforce Powergames (although Skrybe released his as well for free, which was really cool of him), and Hoppin' Mad THIS YEAR. You guys don't lose shit, you just don't get the giant edicks for releasing games you were all hoping for.
Anyway, I couldn't care less if you agree with what we're doing, we're still going to get these games released to people who will appreciate them (and people who won't).
I happen to recall seeing a screen with "NINTENDOAGE RELEASE" on it.
And see? I know nothing because I never released an unreleased NES game, plain ol' unreleased games don't count, folks.
And my lust for edicks really shows in the way I plaster ROMs with "released by drx". Because clearly, if I spend tons of money on protos then release them for free without any sort of entanglement, repro business or watermarking, I am clearly in it for the edicks. Right.
So are the Lost Levels people, by the way. I hear they have a secret forum here where they have a ranking and all. I wouldn't know, because they're too elitist to let me in =(
I appreciate the games. Never did I say I didn't. I don't appreciate your weird and aggressive attitude with people that disagree with your way of releasing them.
edit: this forum filters a certain phrase, fixed
Last edited by drx on Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:57 pm; edited 2 times in total
My release not only doesn't have NA on it, but I also kept every single one of the programmer's name in the ROM just so they could get credit for all of their hard work that went totally unnoticed for 20 years. I also attempted to contact all 3 members of the design team, two did not return phone calls/emails and one is dead.
When was the last time you released an UNRELEASED NES game? NA brought you guys Happy Camper, Mike Tyson's Intergalactic Power Punch, Exerion II, Uforce Powergames (although Skrybe released his as well for free, which was really cool of him), and Hoppin' Mad THIS YEAR. You guys don't lose shit, you just don't get the giant edicks for releasing games you were all hoping for.
Anyway, I couldn't care less if you agree with what we're doing, we're still going to get these games released to people who will appreciate them (and people who won't).
I happen to recall seeing a screen with "NINTENDOAGE RELEASE" on it.
And see? I know nothing because I never released an unreleased NES game, plain ol' unreleased games don't count, folks.
Hoppin' Mad, the only NES game I've released so far, says NOTHING about NA as they didn't help to release the game with the exception of their kick ass support.
It's not that unreleased games on other platforms don't count, it's just that they usually aren't NEARLY as valuable so the cost to acquire them and the loss in value is substantially less. I have Meebzork, Looney Toons Hotel, and Millipede for the 5200 and I don't think these builds have been dumped. I'd sell them for $250 a piece without even thinking about it, they didn't cost much to get in the first place. See what I'm getting at?
It's not that people disagree with the way we're releasing them, that is totally reasonable and I understand that you can't please everyone. It's the whole "fuck you" attitude that I resent, I don't think my reaction to that is all too bizarre.
Anyway, I'll keep on releasing NES games the way that I plan on doing and people can piss and moan about a word or two in the ROM being changed. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
It depends on the game too, largely, and the platform, but I'm not running in a contest or anything.
It's just that your innuendos about pissing and moaning aren't really helping. Most of the disagreements I've seen were quite civil, it's just a couple trolls that seem to pick cheap name fights that are quite loud and blur the vision, then the other side gets agitated too and we end up with yet another topic like this.
I completely agree that it depends on the platform, but the NES appears to be the hot ticket right now. If I can release the most expensive games to the public without going broke in the process, I think it's a pretty good deal.
In hind sight I also have to agree that it appears to be a minority group that pulls the cheap shots out on shit like this, everyone else seems to have been civil in their delivery.
This arguement is stale and old, and it boggles the mind that people don't seem to realize wtf is going on, or why people are upset. Myself, I find the corruption of pieces of history to be just disgusting. And the fact that people are being charged the amount that they are so they can get a HACKED, NON-ORIGINAL, CORRUPTED piece of data, while these collectors laugh their ass off all the way to the bank. Not only did they receive a shitload of money for a corrupted rom, but they still have the original, which they are (in their minds) retaining the value of the original. It's selfish, and it's greedy. Bottom line. And before we get to the stale, stale, stale arguement of U GET GAME 4 FREE U R SELFISH I'll state again, I could give a fuck less if any of these games come out. As long as they are dumped and preserved, I'm a happy motherfucker.
You're right, I'll stop releasing games like this when 99% of people don't give a fuck.
I don't understand how taking an unfinished Hoppin' Mad, adding enemies to the third level, adding a ticker that tracks how many loops of the game, and adding a palette swap for the second player would make it an inferior product, but maybe it's just me.
You're comparing apples to oranges, I'm sure those watermarks wouldn't bother you as much if they were on the back of the paintings and pictures...
Who said anything about going home? I'll make sure to keep you in the loop for every unreleased game I bring to the gamers that love this shit!
What I meant to say is that I'll keep going on corrupting ROMs and you can keep going on corrupting corrupted ROMs
There are a lot of good people on these boards, I'm done continuing with the negativity that's taken over the thread. Pachuka, if you need any help reproing games, just shoot me a PM, I'd LOVE to help you get your games out. Promise I won't mess with the ROMs either.
I don't understand how taking an unfinished Hoppin' Mad, adding enemies to the third level, adding a ticker that tracks how many loops of the game, and adding a palette swap for the second player would make it an inferior product, but maybe it's just me.
You've got two different audiences who follow this sort of thing. On one hand, there's the people who are interested in the games primarily for the gameplay. To them, you've provided a brand new game for them to experience.
On the other hand, there are those who're interested in the historical aspect of these unreleased games. In hacking Hoppin' Mad into a completed form, while your intentions were good, to them, you've defaced a piece of art.
I don't understand how taking an unfinished Hoppin' Mad, adding enemies to the third level, adding a ticker that tracks how many loops of the game, and adding a palette swap for the second player would make it an inferior product, but maybe it's just me.
You've got two different audiences who follow this sort of thing. On one hand, there's the people who are interested in the games primarily for the gameplay. To them, you've provided a brand new game for them to experience.
On the other hand, there are those who're interested in the historical aspect of these unreleased games. In hacking Hoppin' Mad into a completed form, while your intentions were good, to them, you've defaced a piece of art.
Seems reasonable, but I equate it to more like defacing a copy of the art. I still have the original unedited prototype, as well as an unedited ROM saved on 2 hard drives. The original is alive and well and in a safe spot, so I would hope the preservationists would be fairly pleased.
I'm a gamer myself, and having nearly a complete library from my favorite system ever, there just aren't many chances to play a game I've never had the chance to play before. Playing Hoppin' Mad, Arcadia VI, USA Bowling, Kittie's Catch, and Super Xevious is like an extension of all the great games I've already been able to play. If more people could experience it the way that I can, I think it's a pretty cool thing.
I completely understand both sides, it's the name calling that ends up being pretty weak. My intentions are good, whether people like the idea or not. My goal as I said before is bring out as many NES games as possible while not going broke in the process.
This is the reason I'm more for the non-release of corrupted stuff:
Most people know the mona lisa. Most copies of the paining look like this. It has been copied millions of times. However, the original looked like this:
Most copies out there follow the pattern of the corrupted one. Whatever is more in distribution becomes the norm.
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 285 Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:13 am Post subject:
If it's between not getting to play the game at all, and a title screen hack, I'd rather have the latter. I do always appreciate people sharing games with the public, and you get to experience 99% of the game the way it was originally intended... it's just that the 1% is quite obvious. The polished version of Hoppin' Mad actually sounds very cool. It's just that in an ideal world, there'd be room for both.
That said, having spent many years collecting games, often trying to find the "best" version and/or variants, I can certainly understand the distaste for the original being defaced, if you will. It's quite disconcerting from a historical perspective, which will become increasingly important as videogames continue to gain legitimacy as an art form. I also worry that in cases where the ROM was edited, hidden changes may have been made which aren't disclosed, as a GOTCHA! measure.
I guess when it comes down to it, people are going to do what they want. At least the original ROMs are archived, and will hopefully one day be released if the cartridges change hands to a more receptive owner.
dunno. i don't think so. copyright notices are essentially meaningless in law anyway, copyright applies automatically regardless.
i mean it is, of course, illegal to distribute these games in any form without permission from the copyright holder, but distributing unreleased material tends to be one of these situations where copyright law is mostly overlooked because it won't do anyone any good to respect it.
You're correct. However, when piracy is already committed it doesn't matter much. You could list a handful of things that are illegal:
#1 it's illegal for the people who own original prototypes to own them
#2 it's illegal to copy a game (A lot of gray area and battling here, but basic rule of thumb is it's illegal to copy ANY software, even for "backup" principles)
#3 it's illegal to electronically distribute copyrighted software
#4 it's illegal to hack or modify original software. (Check out anyone who has tried a chrono trigger hack recently)
#5 it's illegal to produce hard copies, such as carts or cd-roms
#6 it's illegal to sell those copies
Piracy is piracy. Once you break one rule, why not break them all?
I was trying pretty hard to articulate my feelings on this whole altering thing. Richter Belmont's post more or less is how I feel. I think the other factor that should be brought up is that some of us tend to be a bit of a "perfectionist" when it comes to roms. I personally hate bad dumps and have over the years weeded out the corrupted roms and replaced them with clean versions, or whatever was the best version available. This practice of editing the copyrights, although a small change, still feels like purposely releasing a bad dump and it kind of nags at you.
What you did to Hoppin' Mad Mark, does admittedly sound cool. Taking an unfinished game and making it more playable is certainly a much larger step than a regular proto collector would take towards a game. Truth be told though, as again Richter said in his post, it would have been ideal if you released this alongside the unaltered proto. Skrybe was right about there being different kinds of people who play protos, and I definitely fall into the "historical" side. I love seeing the protos in their natural state, even in incompleted form just to see how far the developers got. Having that version to compare to your finished one would also probably have made it even more interesting.
This does kind of lead into my last point which is, that I hope the precedent for games being altered doesn't go too far. A small copyright change is annoying but I can deal with it. (As long as the pure rom is backed up somewhere.) But if an owner feels the need to go further and edit the game's graphics etc. then I feel its a problem. Say Bio Force Ape actually turns up, and the owner releases it, but insists on the butter monster being inserted. I wouldn't be too happy, as I'd want to play the game the way the designer's intended. I also didn't agree with bunnyboy changing Cuestick into "Sara Parker's Pool Challenge".
I don't want you to get the wrong idea or anything Mark. You seem like a decent guy. But that's just the way I feel about it.
Joined: 22 Dec 2005 Posts: 216 Location: baltimore, md
Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:44 am Post subject:
i just want to throw in my two cents, because this has been a good read thus far and the thread hasnt turned too malevolent yet. i think that in releasing of any roms or repros, with released games or otherwise, a simple line of text on the screen would probably do away with any sort of animosity or bad feelings that could come from either side of the two arguments that there seem to be really clear-cut opinions on.
i think if there were the line that was decided across the community of how it would be best worded, but along the lines of 'released by fans, for fans' could probably go a long way. it always seemed to work with fansubbed anime when i was younger and was involved in doing subtitling of my own, and there were only a few 'pirates' that gained notoriety for just having so many subtitled anime that they shouldnt have, and even then they didnt really charge too much or gouge anybody for the quality of what they released.
theres no doubt a lot of time that goes into releasing a nes game that wasnt finished, coded or made properly and i think a lot of praise needs to go to people that do it. however i think a simple line of praise such as that might be a very appropriate nod to the original authors who worked so diligently with the code and brought their ideas, their creations, to life.
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