Joined: 07 Sep 2003 Posts: 139 Location: the frozen northland
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:41 pm Post subject: I have found my calling, my...vocation
So I found my life purpose. And that is to write an essay about why the dumping of ROM images is a good thing. This will not be a cheap-shot at "collectors", nor will it be in the styles of a badly-written forum post, such as this. It will be a well thought out paper, developed with care.
Why do I want to do this? There are three main reasons. One is that I am a firm believer in reasonable copyright law and the freedom of information. The second is that I wish for history to be documented. If collectors take their games to the grave, the world will lose extremely valuable artifacts that chronicle the growth and development of both the art and technology of video games. The last is that this provides an opportunity for me to improve my writing skills, and having a topic that I am interested and opinionated in will provide a good starting point. Other than that, I'm not really sure why I want to do this. It just seems like a good idea.
Why am I posting this here? I am posting this here because lostlevels.org is a place frequented by many who seem to have similar opinions as I do in these areas (at least that's what I've inferred). While there are times when frustrations run high (DURR BUTTER), I believe that by providing a logical argument may help to sway those who are not sure what side to be on. It will also allow more uninformed people to learn about the deeper issues that accompany their free game downloads. By reaching these people, our goals can be better achieved.
With all of this said, I extend an invitation for anyone who wishes to join me in this project. In terms of status, I have not really started brainstorming or developing any ideas. This is really the beginning. Hopefully, this can create a strong (perhaps irrefutable) argument for the proponents of prototypes and abandonware everywhere.
Joined: 26 Aug 2003 Posts: 673 Location: New Orleans, LA
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:22 pm Post subject: Re: I have found my calling, my...vocation
ClamIAm wrote:
I believe that by providing a logical argument
And thus your plan breaks down.
Some people refuse to see the value of the data, which is what bitrot kills, and instead choose to focus on the value of the uniqueness of the cartridge. To those people, it doesn't matter that the data could be lost or that no one else will ever get to experience the game. The only important thing to those people is that they have got something that you do not. This is called selfishness.
Some people hoard an unreleased game so that the perceived value of the cartridge will go up. To those people, it doesn't occur that the actual value of a cartridge is only as much as what someone else is willing to pay for it. Some of these people will agree to have a game backed up in case something were to happen to the cartridge, which shows that they do see the value of the data. But these people also refuse to share the data with others because they fear that this will decrease the value of their cartridge. The ironic thing is that if the cartridge does die, it becomes essentially valueless. The most important thing to these people is that they can potentially make money from the cartridge. This is called greed.
I could get into the third type of hoarder, the spiteful person, but I'll skip that particular pit of venom. I think it's safe to say that the greedy, selfish, spiteful types will not be swayed by an intelligent, concise, well-thought-out point, simply because it's against their nature.
Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 576 Location: confirmed
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:58 pm Post subject:
Mona Lisa is worth quite a lot, but only as much as someone idiot would pay for it, you don't really have to go to wherever it is to have a look at it, you don't have to buy it from someone to see it, infact, you can go online and get a hi-res picture of it to look at instead.
Mona Lisa needs people to take good care of it, do preservation stuff to it and evt. restoration work, like the roof in the 16th Chapel.
Now, did the Mona Lisa lose value when someone took a hi-res picture of it and put it online?
Joined: 28 Aug 2003 Posts: 2103 Location: I hate you.
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:40 am Post subject: Re: I have found my calling, my...vocation
KlarthAilerion wrote:
Klarth is smart
This is why I don't usually bother with the downer responses, there's always someone else that can do it waaaaaay better. So, yeah, everything Klarth said.
Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 576 Location: confirmed
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:16 am Post subject:
Quote:
A prototype videogame contains an exact copy of digital data on useless medium.
Wasn't gonna go that into detail, but the thing was simple, both the painting and the prototype contains someone's attempt at putting their 'vision' onto something. (A vision that'll evt. be lost for good if no one cares to preserve it)
Joined: 26 Aug 2003 Posts: 4192 Location: Oakland, CA
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:36 am Post subject:
Carnivol wrote:
Quote:
A prototype videogame contains an exact copy of digital data on useless medium.
Wasn't gonna go that into detail, but the thing was simple, both the painting and the prototype contains someone's attempt at putting their 'vision' onto something. (A vision that'll evt. be lost for good if no one cares to preserve it)
And no one's disagreeing with you on the "artistic vision" and "preservation" points, but neither of those were your original argument. Your argument is that the Mona Lisa did not devalue monetarily after being copied, therefore neither should a videogame, and I'm telling you that the Mona Lisa is an actual, tangible work of art and a prototype videogame cartridge or disc is generic, standard, worthless medium that HAPPENS to contain valuable data, which is intangible. By your logic it's the canvas Mona Lisa sits on that is valuable, and not the brush strokes.
Joined: 07 Sep 2003 Posts: 139 Location: the frozen northland
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:15 am Post subject: Re: I have found my calling, my...vocation
KlarthAilerion wrote:
ClamIAm wrote:
I believe that by providing a logical argument
And thus your plan breaks down.
Ouch. Well, perhaps I was being a tad optimistic. Maybe I'll go ahead with it anyway, but purely from an academic/theoretical point of view. I know that I won't reach anyone whose head is up their ass, but ... um ... yeah.
Joined: 28 Aug 2003 Posts: 2103 Location: I hate you.
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:04 am Post subject: Re: I have found my calling, my...vocation
ClamIAm wrote:
KlarthAilerion wrote:
ClamIAm wrote:
I believe that by providing a logical argument
And thus your plan breaks down.
Ouch. Well, perhaps I was being a tad optimistic. Maybe I'll go ahead with it anyway, but purely from an academic/theoretical point of view. I know that I won't reach anyone whose head is up their ass, but ... um ... yeah.
It's always heart breaking when common sense and logic are dismissed out of hand because of greed and selfishness, and this situation isn't any exception.
Joined: 26 Aug 2003 Posts: 673 Location: New Orleans, LA
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:39 am Post subject:
Yeah, hey, if you think you can write something up to sway those on the fence, I'm not trying to deter you from that at all. In fact, I agree with you, as do many here. I'm just saying that talking to the brick walls is great and all, but if you keep at it too long, you're going to look a little crazy.
My Mona Lisa/devaluation point in case for video game preservation is the 1990 Nintendo World Championships cart. People are still paying big chunks for it, and it's been dumped for two or three years or so now. Wow, what massive devaluation. I'm so pissed at myself for single-handedly ruining the value of that collectible item. Oh, wait... The come-back argument is that "NWC was a special event, and as such has special meaning tied into it, and people will pay for that meaning, etc.". To which I would reply that the value of any cartridge is what someone is willing to pay for it, and real collectors are willing to pay for that particular game regardless of the fact that it is dumped.
If someone actually cares about owning a legitimate, one-of-a-kind prototype of a game, they will pay what it takes to get it, regardless of whether it's been dumped or not. I say that the "hardcore" collectors who will pass on a dumped one-of-a-kind prototype and buy a reproduction of the cart aren't "hardcore" at all, but are rather the worst kind of software pirates. Remember, even "legitimately" owning a prototype is piracy and theft of intellectual property, unless the owner was given the items by whatever entities have complete ownership of the rights to said prototype and intellectual property. To purchase a reproduction cart of one of those games is way dodgy, especially if it's EVER sold or traded to someone else. That is where the true devaluation of the original item comes into play. Greedy, selfish pricks.
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:24 am Post subject: RE:
If you intend to do this, Clam, then let me have a hand. I agree with the comparisons between the Mona Lisa and games as valuable artifacts. I have already long been working on an article addressing the same issue that you have been concerned with.
In addition, I have had philosophical discussions about collectables, among other things, so this is very interesting to me.
It is safe to say though that this debate is definately on our side in the winning round. I have put much thought and observation into studying this problem and have come to several conclusions and important points, but this is not the place to address them. IM Me sometime and we can talk. I would be glad to communicate with you.
Joined: 26 Aug 2003 Posts: 4192 Location: Oakland, CA
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:21 am Post subject: Re: RE:
Ark ~ The 6th Commandment wrote:
I have put much thought and observation into studying this problem and have come to several conclusions and important points, but this is not the place to address them.
Actually, it kind of is. The only difference here is that we've been dealing with these people going on four or five years now, so we know what the real world is like now. We used to be as angry as you guys were but, you know, there comes a time when you realize you can't change the world, so rather than standing on a mountaintop and screaming, you just have to do what little things you can to help.
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:55 pm Post subject: RE:
Quote:
If someone actually cares about owning a legitimate, one-of-a-kind prototype of a game, they will pay what it takes to get it, regardless of whether it's been dumped or not.
It's easy to understand that collectors are not going to pay for something that is already dumped because prototype cartridges are nothing more than [as mentioned earlier] a ROM image on a glorified useless generic piece of plastic and EEPROM board. People are more motivated to pay a lot for a unique item. You will never find anyone who is going to overpay for a dumped proto and for good reason. It's not really the cartridge but the content.
Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 576 Location: confirmed
Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:17 am Post subject:
Some people go tur-tall-berserk on Ebay every now and then when they see people put up reproductions,
They often pay several hundred for what's basicly something they could've mass-produced home in their own basement, with an overall better quality/feel/look.
IF they'd invested the money on the right equipment instead of on a single reproduction.
Rom dumping is mostly a security issue. Backups prevent you from losing your investment, especially since eeproms don't have the security of a maskrom. Releasing the image is, generally speaking, an act of charity.
Although in most cases cartidges are little more than strata, there are those instances where the hardware contained on the board is just as important. Late-era SNES comes to mind, with many carts using specialized or rare chipboards.
The worth of a title is of course always dependant of the individual collector. Some are just nuts that way.
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