Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 578 Location: 33.884906 | -84.053758
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:39 am Post subject: Hey IceKnight
You're the Sonic authority in these parts, and I'm sure you've probably come across it. What do you make of this?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JbVM-l2Oku4
Pure speculation, or some validity behind it?
Joined: 26 Aug 2003 Posts: 1600 Location: beneath enemy scrotum
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:57 am Post subject:
It's true. Look up the names of the composers to Sonic 3 and Knuckles - they're all composers, arrangers and performers associated with Jackson. They've gone so far as to reuse their material for Jackson's music, the biggest smoking gun being the song Stranger in Moscow (compare to the Sonic 3 staff roll).
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 578 Location: 33.884906 | -84.053758
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject:
You know, they didn't really play enough of the credits' theme to really compare it to Stranger In Moscow. So I couldn't really call that.
Some of the song choices seem odd, that is if MJ was set to officially do the soundtrack. SIM I can understand because that was a very current song at the time. But "Who Is It?" and "Jam" weren't. I would have thought they would try and go for a more current soundtrack at the time, but... meh... whatever, it's Jacko.
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 578 Location: 33.884906 | -84.053758
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject:
The History album it was on came out in 1993. Sonic 3 came out a year later. Don't ask me how I remember when that album came out, as I'm not a MJ fan at all...
Joined: 28 Aug 2003 Posts: 2107 Location: purgatory
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:48 am Post subject:
HIStory didn't come out until at least '95. I know because I had my driver's license when it came out and I actually drove to Circuit City to buy a copy, hoping one of the tracks would get edited and the album would be recalled. Alas, it didn't happen, but the shame of purchasing a Michael Jackson album when he was way way out of his prime will stick with me forever.
Then again, that was before he was outted as a kiddie toucher, so I guess it could be worse.
Fake edit: Amazon says June '95, which sounds just about right.
We already knew some of MJ's stuff was in the Sonic 3 credits, and that MJ himself was originally hired to compose the music for Sonic 3 (but the plans changed when certain scandals were made public, according to STI's Roger Hector), and I personally think the similarities between Stranger in Moscow and the Sonic 3 credits music are too big for it to be a coincidence... But we'd better wait 'till some insider gives us some more light on it.
The Carnival Night/Jam and Icecap/Smooth Criminal similarities are quite good as well, but when a sped up, trimmed and pitch altered version of Who Is It is taken as another similarity with the Icecap music, you realize that you can almost convert anything to match up with any Sonic music. So I say, let's get some info from the devs before assuming stuff.
EDIT: By the way, Sonic CD was in 1993, Sonic 3 in 1994. And this musical incident was possibly one of the many reasons for the delay (I've heard from an STI insider that the project was started right after Sonic 2).
Joined: 26 Aug 2003 Posts: 1600 Location: beneath enemy scrotum
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:16 am Post subject:
What similarities between Ice Cap and Smooth Criminal? I don't doubt that Michael Jackson's songwriters worked on Sonic 3 (it's a matter of fact) or that they reused at least some of that material (Stranger in Moscow is not "similar" to the Sonic 3 credits, it's the exact same harmonic progression at a different tempo), but these two songs have nothing in common musically, aside from a very basic triplet rhythm. Is there no one in the Sonic community who is capable musically?
One of the things you'll notice early when you try learning the guitars (or whatever instrument that uses chords) is that a lot of songs share the same chord progression. Take for example the basic 12-bar blues progression that must have been used a billion times since the early days of blues to the times of rock n' roll, or the one from "Take Good Care of My Baby" (probably has its own name too) which you can hear a lot in ballads ("Unchained Melody") or even Punkrock.
So for a simple four-chord Progression like the verse in "Stranger in Moscow", which goes like "Eb, Db, Gb, Ab", this could be most likely coincidence, and crediting such a simple thing to MJ would be a little far off. The first song that comes to my mind that uses the same progression would be "Dead Leaves And the Dirty Ground" (by the White Stripes which goes like A, G, C, D, (A) which is the same thing transposed up 6 semitones) though there's most likely a lot more.
The thing from Carnivals Zone is an arpeggio which you would also hear a lot in metal solos for example, the two sound similar because they have almost the same length and use roughly the same synthesizer sound, again nothing I would hire an Micheal Jackson for.
As for "Ice Cap Zone" and "Who is it", I admit they're somewhat similar, especially when played in the same key and pitch, but they're still different. This is not just one chord changed as the lower line suggests: "Gm = relative minor of Ebmaj (one note different"
This is particalary confusing, because although Ebmaj (you would usually just write Eb, as all chords are either Major or Minor - you know the ones that sound rather "bright and happy" are Majors and the ones that sound rather "sad and melancholic" - you know that from music class) is the relative major to Gm, and there is indeed just one note different, (Major and Minor chords always consist of three notes, that being "Eb,Bb,G" for Eb and "G,Bb,Eb" for G) those are two different chords and they sound completely different. You check out pentatonics and the pentatonic circle (there you can see the relatives) for more information on that.
I don't think these musical similarities qualify as "hard evidence"...
The question is: Did Micheal Jackson himself compose Music for Sonic 3, and if yes, would he "rip" off of his own stuff? I don't think so.
The evidence of course is: (and I wonder why THAT isn't stated in the video) Musicians associated with Michael Jackson have been working on the music.
Would it make sense to put them to work on the game, maybe "rip" a little bit of stuff they liked (I like the E,D,G,A thing a lot) and put a sticker on the package that says "Music by Micheal Jackson and Friends"? HELL YE$!
As by '94 _accused_ child molestors weren't that popular, (I've always believed in you, MJ!) that didn't happen.
So thats what I think, verdict: This story is semi-true.
Did MJ compose the music for Sonic 3? Not really.
Was MJ associated with the music of Sonic 3, in a way? I believe!
EDIT:
Ah okay so stupid me forgot to really read everything...
The REAL question is of course:
Was there a soundtrack that included much more of MJs original work, which has been scrapped so no one will ever hear it? Had those tracks been recycled into MJs later and rather unsuccessful albums? Was "Blood on the Dancefloor" really meant to be heard while fighting evil Dr. Robotnik? The truth must be somewhere out there!
Joined: 26 Aug 2003 Posts: 1600 Location: beneath enemy scrotum
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:03 am Post subject:
The circle of fifths is not a "pentatonic circle". Pentatonics are scales containing five notes (penta=five + tone, get it?) and have nothing to do with the circle of fifths.
The relative minor of Eb is c. The relative Major of g is Bb. A G chord is spelled G/B/D, and a g chord (which is what I expect you meant) is G/Bb/D. The note E is the sixth note of the scale and is not part of the standard tonic chord.
In regards to Stranger in Moscow, there is more to it than "hey these songs have the same chord progression, or a transposition thereof". There are also issues of voicing (ie what register the notes of each chord lie in, which notes are doubled if any, which instruments play each note) as well as harmonic rhythm (not just what the chords shift to, but when they shift). If you compare these, you continue to find the pieces to be alike. Both songs also share the same verse/chorus structure, so there are actually two identical chord progressions, in an identical order. At least you got one thing right though:
Quote:
The question is: Did Micheal Jackson himself compose Music for Sonic 3, and if yes, would he "rip" off of his own stuff? I don't think so.
The evidence of course is: (and I wonder why THAT isn't stated in the video) Musicians associated with Michael Jackson have been working on the music.
Of course! Michael Jackson doesn't compose. That's why he has these guys to write songs. It's a pretty standard way of working in pop music.
Alright I mixed up with all the fifths, and pentas and quints, It is of course called the Circle of Fifths!
But look here how I learned to construct a major pentatonic scale:
Starting from C, I take five notes from the Circle of Fifths:
C, G, D, A, E
Now I arrange them to follow the order of notes:
C, D, E, G, A
And there's my scale! So for me, they do have something to do with each other.
As the video itself states that Gm or g was the corresponding Minor to Eb, I assumed this to be refering to the Circle of Fifths as i dont know the all of Circle by heart (back in school we used to have mnemonics, but I forgot about them), and I didn't look it up before posting. You're of course right, Gm belongs to Bb, and what I said makes hardly any sense.
And of course, you're also right with the chord spelling, that was another mistake -> "Eb,Bb,G" and "G,Bb,Eb" are obviously the same three notes.
As far as I know, simply transposing doesn't change voicing or doubling of notes? You're right with the rythm of course.
I didn't hear the chorus as it was not in the video, but I gotta get that soundtrack, it simply sounds cool
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