Well, hey, thanks for judging my entire forum based on a couple outspoken people. Cheers.
Sorry about being a part of this group, not my intentions at all to give this forum any sort of bad rap.
The whole "mystery dump" thing is the off putting part, it just seems like an easy way to say "you knew it was going to be a secret until it was released" if the dump turns out be total garbage.
As for the jealousy comment, I really doubt that's the case. I should really cash in my stock or protos one day and start charging for community ROM dumps though, especially if I can pull $500+ without even telling people what I'm going to release.
Joined: 26 Aug 2003 Posts: 4192 Location: Oakland, CA
Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:07 am Post subject:
MrMark0673 wrote:
TheRedEye wrote:
Well, hey, thanks for judging my entire forum based on a couple outspoken people. Cheers.
Sorry about being a part of this group, not my intentions at all to give this forum any sort of bad rap.
Oh I know, it's not your fault. I just find it silly when people will judge an entire community as if it is one hive mind. I feel like the regulars on this forum are an extremely diverse and opinionated lot, and I really like it that way.
Joined: 28 Aug 2003 Posts: 2107 Location: purgatory
Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:28 am Post subject:
Also, Evan, if it makes you feel any better (it won't I guess) I was disappointed with the reaction Final Fantasy II NES got back in the day. It wasn't bad, but I thought it'd be much bigger.
I don't think you will find a bigger lot of egos in the video game community than here.
However, I think a man who doesn't seek glory is a defeated man. For me, it doesn't matter whether it is my work in the geosciences (I have several publications out this year) or my hobby (my website).
Money plays a large part in this hobby though, and you can't really blame those who find these treasures to try and recoup some of what they paid for it.
As someone who is in it for glory, even if it is among a very small group of interested people, the best way to achieve it is to make articles that can be referenced in the future. As time goes on and people start to study video games academically in the same way that books, music and film are now, our efforts will bear fruit. I've had this discussion with a buddy of mine who is a history major, and he regards my work as journalism, primarily because I am not far enough removed from the subject matter. After contemplation, he is right. He also says that in the future, such work will be looked at by scholars attempting to make sense of our culture, and the works published at the time. This is similar to film scholars that look at black-and-white silent cinema from the early 1900s.
At any rate, I wish Sega Saturno and Hidden Palace with their release, but I do hope that we can have a page documenting the importance of this unnamed game.
Also, Evan, if it makes you feel any better (it won't I guess) I was disappointed with the reaction Final Fantasy II NES got back in the day. It wasn't bad, but I thought it'd be much bigger.
I think a few things kept that from getting a huge reaction. For one, Final Fantasy II was available as a translated ROM and a remade commercial release by that point. Secondly, there's a huge crowd of Final Fantasy nerds that don't really care about Final Fantasy prior to the PlayStation or SNES eras. The article itself is interesting, but the game just wasn't that big a deal to many people.
Also, Final Fantasy II is the least-loved of the main numbered games. I'm probably the biggest Final Fantasy nerd on these boards, and I've never played through FFII.
For me, prototype enthusiasm is one of my hobbies because I want to see the history of videogames preserved. That includes things that give insight into the development process, much the same way that a film buff might study the works of a particular director in detail. As a side effect, there are usually interesting things to play and collect in a folder when ROMs do get released - I will not deny this, but it is not my driving factor.
I'm sort of a pragmatic idealist, as I think much if not all of the respected membership here is - while I would say there is a conceptual "goal" of getting all prototypes dumped and released for research purposes, I also realize that is practically impossible and take each ROM release as a sign that we, as a culture, have gotten that little bit closer to the aforementioned "goal".
I also think very highly of those who provide the financial means to make such releases available. I contributed $300 to the Nick Arcade Sonic 2 release and was damn proud to have been able to be a part of preserving something that had been much sought after (at least in the Sonic scene, anyway). I think everyone who has ever donated to purchase or "rent" a proto for dumping deserves a pat on the back. I also don't say this to denigrate those who don't dump carts, or even those who alter ROMs (I think this is a rephrehensible practice, but as long as the unaltered data is preserved somewhere (ideally in multiple locations) then I can still be happy that a prototype has been preserved.
That, and I plain damn just like searching through shit for unused material, especially if it is later seen in an implemented when an earlier build of the same game is found (see: Sonic running into a wall in the Nick Arcade prototype).
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 578 Location: 33.884906 | -84.053758
Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:43 am Post subject:
I have nothing against asking for donations, but when you're playing the Mystery Game card, you're asking for us cynical assholes to call you out on it. And playing the butthurt martyr after said callout in the most tactless way possible is why I'm, well, hate most enthusiasts.
Not Saturn enthusiasts. Not unreleased game enthusiasts. Just enthusiasts.
Werewolf never came out, so the only thing to really compare it to is a non-public later proto that's in a video on Youtube.
Yakumo on Assembler mentioned that the later video is more advanced since it's implemented "running ability, collision detection to hit enemies and a different direction radar." I haven't played it yet, so I don't know if much else is different - but there's so little there, I'd have a hard time imagining much else significant. It's very, very early.
It was to the people releasing it, who in their right mind would have paid $550 (one donator paid $170!) for this piece of garbage if they knew what it was?
Surprise! This game is completely broken and barely payable! Thanks for the cash everyone!
People who are upset just need to vote with their cash and not support releases where they aren't given enough information. If you don't know the game, don't donate. If you don't know how far along the game is, don't donate. If the owner of the proto won't so much as turn the thing on for people to see what stage of development it may be in, don't donate.
It was to the people releasing it, who in their right mind would have paid $550 (one donator paid $170!) for this piece of garbage if they knew what it was?
Surprise! This game is completely broken and barely payable! Thanks for the cash everyone!
People who are upset just need to vote with their cash and not support releases where they aren't given enough information. If you don't know the game, don't donate. If you don't know how far along the game is, don't donate. If the owner of the proto won't so much as turn the thing on for people to see what stage of development it may be in, don't donate.
If anyone is interested in hearing my responses to these arguments, there is a thread on Assembler (http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24958&page=6) where I tried to reply to all concerns.
It was a mistake to make it a surprise, yes. But know that any of the donators had an absolute right to know the game title and even an advance copy of the game if they only asked, but most of them liked the idea of a surprised and preferred to play along.
You seem to be convinced that I malevolently mislead people and that I robbed the poor guy who donated $170 of his hard earned money, or something. This is not the case.
I agree with some of your words, but I really so no point for the aggression or bad mouthing sometimes.
Anyway, as it was said before, the surprise thing was an experiment/game/whatever and this is likely the last one of this kind with my involvement. Again if you want to read more of my words words words, that Assembler thread is available for further reading pleasure.
edit, also:
Quote:
who in their right mind would have paid $550 (one donator paid $170!) for this piece of garbage if they knew what it was?
Most unreleased games are garbage, that's why they are unreleased.
Drx: I want to be as clear as possible in that I don't think you did anything wrong. Not at all, and I've felt that way from moment one. I don't think you misled people, I don't think you scammed them, I don't think that you ripped them off.
My comment is directed toward those people who pay up the cash for something like this without receiving basically any info on it. If people continue to be ok with tossing money at "community dumps" while receiving less and less info on what they will actually get, things like this are going to continue to happen.
Like I said, I really don't put ANY fault on you for this at all. You have been a class act straight through this entire ordeal and have apologized several times. My comments are just my way of saying that if the community doesn't like the result, they need to stop supporting these releases with their cash.
Edit: One last thing about most unreleased games being garbage...
Yes, many are, but being a bad game is not the only reason a game doesn't get released. Loss of funding, a decision against a region port, too many games released for the system by a company in a year, etc.
I don't know, some of the unreleased snes games that I have released were actually pretty good (ie Eurit, untitled NFL Football, Mr Tuff). At the very least, they are fully playable. Asking $550 for an essentially non-playable alpha seems a bit steep.
Werewolf never came out, so the only thing to really compare it to is a non-public later proto that's in a video on Youtube.
Yakumo on Assembler mentioned that the later video is more advanced since it's implemented "running ability, collision detection to hit enemies and a different direction radar." I haven't played it yet, so I don't know if much else is different - but there's so little there, I'd have a hard time imagining much else significant. It's very, very early.
Oh...I was thinking of the Werewolf game that DID come out. My mistake. I stand by my crickets.
I think in the future, if similar "mystery" releases are attempted, there need to be some hints put out there. AS FAR AS I KNOW, for this release, the only hint that was given was that "this is a completely unreleased game". Nothing to help those who might want to invest the time in doing some research to try to figure out the game. It was basically "we have a prototype, and the only way to know what the game is would be to donate towards its release".
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